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The Six Nations of Virginia’s pow-wow will be coming up April 3-May 1 and 2. I probably won’t dance that day. It may be to hot. I am more interested in meeting new people.
I intend on driving down for it. My family still lives in Virgina so I will visit them also.
Response to the comments made about blood:
In terms of the one drop of black blood making you black. Well, the elders that are know that are indian always told me one drop of indian blood makes you indian. I do not allow anyone to classify for me, what I am.
Although Kunta Kinte of roots was beat into submission and forced to be called Toby. He knew who and what he was. Other people that see some of you I am sure recognize that there is something different about you whether they think you look more European or Black. I am asked by non-minority people what are you? Spanish or Indian or what. They view me one way but also see something else that they cannot pinpoint.
These days who knows???? Mariah Carey is black by nonwhite persons definition. Yet she is also accepted as white. She is half black and half white. Go whichever way the creator leads you. One could go on and on with this topic.
Well, anyway have a great day.
Thanks for the reminder about the pow wow. I like that one. I hope I can get another small fortune with which to fill my gas tank and make it up there.
I like the one drop rule on Indian blood myself. I think that’s the way we ought to go. After all, it’s a majority rule country, so let that shift on a majority rule for awhile.
You know, I’m partial to that point of view myself. In fact, if I may be so bold, I tend to think that this way of thinking is a great way for the survival of eastern US tribes. I feel that the idea of extinct Indians is just lying down and dying. The only anecdote that I can remember coming from the Indian side of the family, is this: You did what you had to do to be listed as white. I was also told that the state had an…agenda…if you will….to list everyone as either white or black, so that the Indian problem would be eliminated. I was also told, with great pride by my Dad, that the Haliwa were SO clever, that they saw the way things were going, and they bought their own land so that they would never be removed from it. I guess my Dad didn’t know that the Creek tried to buy their land too, at some point, but were not allowed to do so.
I was talking to someone from a western US tribe, online. The topic was the future of reservations. He made some harmless, yet slighting, comment about the Lumbees in NC. He felt that their vast numbers and “impure” blood was “kind of” a joke. I told him that on the cover of the, then, current issue of the Smithsonian Magazine, there was a couple from a western tribe featured on the front as…I guess…an example of the American Indian today. ( It was in celebration of the Museum of the American Indian in DC) In fact, I know many Lumbees who “look” more Indian than they did. I also mentioned to him that tribal numbers start to mean something, and that when you come to the idea of a tribe and a culture, you are really talking about family and people and the way that they are connected. I cautioned him, that he should not stray into thinking of being Indian, as a commodity. I reminded him that the things that have happened to western tribes are Recent History, and the fate, the past events, and the future of eastern tribes is not only a Somewhat Different Matter, but a cautionary tale for their own future. I was trying to make the case with him…my own view here……not to allow the US gov to tell you what you are, and who your relatives are.
Personally, I no longer answer the census as white, I put down mixed. Because I am.
These are just my thoughts. I did not mean to tee him off, or anyone else for that matter. Just my two cents.
Regards,
Lynne
The great shame of it all is that the eastern “established” (Treaty) Indian Nations themselves, elected to use the “blood quamtum” scale to limit the distribution of the “payoff” and are the chief enforcers of it yet today. The more-western people only “picked it up” as a “useful practice”. It was/is, a purely european way of looking at relatedness. I’m not envious.
The concept of “Blood-Quantum” is not Native to this continent.
I’m honored by my ancestors’ decisions to become “Citizen Indians” and to stand on their own, in the traditionally individual way, as in the older time. The Ancestors excluded no one and neither will I.
Bill
I’m honored by my ancestors’ decisions to become “Citizen Indians” and to stand on their own, in the traditionally individual way, as in the older time. The Ancestors excluded no one and neither will I.
Bill
I totally agree. I recently told someone that I support anything that unites us all as one and oppose anything that is devisive.
Ah, how nice to come home after a hard week of work and find this interesting discussion. Strangely enough, I was thinking of this just today….and hoping it would come up for a topic.
I was also thinking of this….this whole topic of “blood quantum”…good words there….has an unpleasant backlash to it, and I’ll be specific…the less Indians you have the quicker they die out and it lessens the positive contributions to our country that can be made.
There are many groups that recognize slight blood, take the Jews for instance. In all their wanderings, if they did not recognize their own people, and try to keep them intact, where would they be now? Indian people, as far as I know, do not push population. There is no code to have many children. Other groups do this, both religious and cultural ones. Personally I think population push is not a great idea, for the obvious reasons. However, if you aren’t pushing population ( and I don’t think we should) AND you aren’t bringing into the Indian culture all of the people who have connection, you are doing the Indian culture, and the rest of the US culture, a dis- service. Such short sightedness marginalizes you, makes you more vulnerable to outside influences, and you gradually disappear. I realize that there has been an agenda, down south anyway, to help Indians disappear by making them either black people or white people, as far as the records go. The bad thing is, all of this works. When an Indian population is surrounded and outnumbered by other groups, eventually intermarriage will take place. And one of the NICE things about Indian ways of thinking, is that this fact was not the horror that it was to Europeans. If you don’t have a lot of “blood” left, then what do you have? You do have a way of thinking that has certain values, cultural priorities, ways of relating to the group, and ideas of what is right behavior and wrong behavior. And from what I learned from my father about Indian priorities…I think these are excellent, and that our country needs more and more of them.
These cultural priorities are what is most valuable about being Indian. To me, its a lot more valuable than dances and recipies. If more people thought like Indians, had the same values as Indians, I think our country would be a far better place.
Now I know that we all live in different parts of the country, watch TV, have gone to public school, and live in the US like all other US citizens…so what do I mean about Indian values? I bet that all of you could add to a list, and it may become quite long, so I’ll just give you a few that were passed on to me:
For instance, when I was a young teen my Dad told me not to worry about all that make up and high heel stuff. He told me that a good Indian woman was industrious and cheerful. He encouraged me to spend a lot of time outdoors and love the land we lived in. He told us to listen first and speak last. He told us that if you don’t know your heart you will never know your mind. He told us to let another speak their peace, and really hear them before we moved to judgement. He encouraged reciprocity in dealings with others. He encouraged us to suffer the ways of the very young and the very old…no matter what they did. He told us to listen and watch, everything. He really did describe these things as Indian things, and also told us that it would carry us far no matter where we went. He also told us that no one would listen to us, even when we were grown, if we did act like grown people, that is, accept our share of the burdens in life, be responsible for our acts and our mates, and stand up like a real person before the world….there was no hiding. He also told us that working for a living was hunting. You hunted everyday, so be a good hunter. I’ll probably think of more later…….
I used to wonder where he got all of those “Indian things” since he was raised in an orphanage. I wouldn’t have had the disrespect to ask him. But he did spend a lot of time with the Cherokee in the mountains, because when he owned his own construction business, he told me that he would hire as many Cherokee to work for him as he possibly could. Sometimes he was gone for many months. So he may have gotten it at that time…but he was always of that mind anyway.
Another thing that I noticed about him, there was no division of labor into woman’s work and man’s work. He helped my mother and she helped him. Well, I have to admit that he didn’t do any sewing, and I have to admit that she never made any knives, but they shared the work that was done….and the kids did too of course.
Now, I think our country is breaking down culturally. Perhaps this is a gloomy and radical view, and then again, maybe you share it too. Comercialism is about all that we have in common, as Americans. In fact, almost any thing, even vices, can at least be *understood* if it shows a profit of some kind. This is the ruination of people, because, without check, comercialism becomes the motive for life. We have lost a lot of the inner balance that we used to have from the time when even I was young.
I have a hope, that the good things about Indian ways, could balance things again. They are solid, basic, daily, and very humanistic. If there were more Indians, living in Indian ways, I think there could be a wonderful change in the way we live our lives as Americans. And this kind of hope for the future, is something that will wither if blood quantum, and the scraps from the government, become the demarcation of who is Indian and how Indians live. It comes down to demographics. The fewer Indians, the less influence Indians will have. There is NO WAY under the present idea of who and what is an Indian, that population is ever going to be more than a dwindling trickle. And if these tests and acceptences continue; commerce, commodity, and scraps is all that will be left. If you can’t confine Indians to a reservation, then breed them out. It doesn’t have to be that way. There is so much to offer each other, and everyone else who lives here.
Regards,
Lynne
This is an interesting discussion. I’ve battled with it my whole life. I recall as a kid having Indian kids (Comanche) come up to me and saying “what the hell are you?” and laughing at me. They were more cruel than white kids.
I also recall being in the home of some Southern Cheyenne up in Weatherford, Ok. I was in college and was there with a couple of Kiowa who were good friends. I remember the Southrn Cheyenne starting to redicule me and the Kiowa stood up for me. In those days i drank alcohol and none of us were sober. Had they not intervened for me, I probably would have taken a good wippin’ that night. So I owe savin’ my teeth, eye sockets and jawbone being intact that night, to those 2 Kiowa who took me to that house. ‘Course they probably shouldn’t have talken me there in the first place . . . 🙁
As far as some Indian people are concerned, I was White, and I was NOT welcome. According to others, I was mixed. I wanted to fit in with them, but I didn’t — they were full blood and I was mixed.
There was a time when I didn’t want to acknowledge my Indian blood and that was why. I understood why when asked, dad would say “Oh, I have a little Indian blood, not much” — he probably had to put up with that in school, too.
I grew up hearing of “blood-quantum” et cetera, all my life. I just don’t wanna romanicize the one drop rule, or negate the objections full bloods have to it.
I’d like to invite anyone who wants to to come down here to Oklahoma sometime and go to a Pow-wow where nearly everyone is full-blood and you stick out like a sore thumb if you aren’t, where the MC tells jokes about the “white Cherokees” et cetera.
Here in Oklahoma if I said “I’m Indian” I’d get funny stares . . . I could hear the full bloods thinkin, ” oh no, another white person living in a fantacy world” — but I could probably pull it of if I lived anywhere else just about.
I don’t have any answer as to what I think about the one drop rule or blood quantum is right or not. But it is important that this topic be discussed face to face between mixed blood and full bloods — as they are the ones who need to hear us, and we do need to hear their side of it, too, that isn’t getting told.
Vance
Hello Vance.
I am sorry to hear that this has been a difficult issue. I think that if you lived in NC, you wouldn’t have had to hear this kind of thing….I *think* that you wouldn’t have. Outside of some of the Cherokee in the western part of the state, most Indians on the east coast look either very white, very black, or very mixed between the three. Its a common sight. You can get pretty good at telling who has significant NA heritage, despite their skin color, or hair type. You see a lot of mixed people.
When I used to work in TN, I had a cherokee friend named Noel. He lived on the rez with his granddad. He was burly, blone, blue eyed, and rosy cheeked. I have a friend at work who is 1/4 Cherokee. He has big blue eyes. I know a lot of Lumbee, unless they have inherited Indian looking traits through genetic drift, you don’t know unless they tell you. And I run into old ladies with the hook nose and golden skin who are “black”, but when I say “hello grandmother”, they know what I am talking about. Its just a fact of life.
The reality is that on the east coast, all Indians are very mixed. Many of them are official Indians because of where they live and what their parents did to enroll them. They look no more Indian than I do. They know it. All they have to do is look in the mirror. The east coast has had a long and bloody history. Longer, bloodier, and more vicious than the west, in my opinion. That any Indians survived at all is a testiment to staying power. When you are outnumbered a 1,000 to one, what do you do? Crawl off and die? You keep going. You taste the good things that life has to offer. You try to let bad blood soak into the ground and not stay on your hands. Perhaps some Indians in the west don’t really understand this. Reservations have a lot of down sides, but at least they have the protection of a ghetto. It would probably make a lot of Indians mad to hear me say that….and like I said there are some powerful downsides to rez living. When I was on the Cherokee rez in NC, 30 years ago, babies slept in drawers placed on the floor in tarpaper houses…however, in all the time that I worked in the Mts., I saw a lot of people, black and white, with babies sleeping in drawers on the floor. It wasn’t because they were of any particular race, it was because they had nothing better. And yet…with all those trees around, they also didn’t bother to chop any down, make any boards no matter how crudely, and MAKE a bed, either. I’ll cut this rant off by saying that the idea never seemed to occur to them, which I found a little odd. There is a pervasive attitude of victimhood, and hopelessness that I would change, if it were me. When we were little, and my Dad had no money for toys, he went out into the woods, chopped down trees and made wagons and doll houses. He had that kind of spirit that enabled east coast Indians to keep on going.
And isn’t this how we got to where we are today? Some of our ancestors said, “I can do that”. I can have a better life. I can get a better school. I can get a better job. Or at least I can try to.
Being Indian was just part of our make up. I didn’t have to go through the wringer like you did….and if you’ll forgive my impertinence, it makes me a little sore to hear that you had to put up with it. It also occurs to me that “Indian Unity” is just as much an empty idea now, as it ever was. Glad to hear that you had Kiowa friends that liked you for who you are, not what you are, and stood up like real people.
Yeah, I could get up on a soap box…I’m a ranter….but here is the bottom line. Official Indians need what we have, the unofficial Indians. We don’t need what they have. I think that we are their future. I think that if they were wise they would take lessons from us. I think that if they think that the Fed gov. is going to behave in treaty fashion with them in purpituity, then I think that they are nuts. Sooner or later, this rez situation is going to end. Sooner or later, the status of a nation within a nation is going to end. Sooner or later, the “fact” that there are only a certain amount of Indians per tribe is going to backfire bigtime, viz: the lesser there are, the lesser they matter, the less their vote counts. Funds will be cut even more. And wait until the demographics of the US change. Do you have any idea how Indians are treated in Latin America? Not too good. To me….and yes, I admit that I can get a little out there…the handwriting is on the wall. The handwriting was on the wall for all of our ancestors who bought their own land because they saw the way things were going. And they were right. We are here today because of the changes that they made, the sacrifices they made, and the tough decisions they made.
I look at it this way….for the most part, what the rez Indians have are scraps. Maybe they are satisfied with that. I don’t want any of those scraps. I can think of a better way to do these things…..I can think of a better way to preserve Indian culture and live in the modern world making your own financial decisions. In fact, *I don’t have to think of it at all, there are dozens of sucessful models to choose from. We have adapted. Many tribes exist today simply because people got tired of killing them. It was easier to put them where they could either die off or kill each other. On the dark side….this “plan” is working quite well. From the little I have seen of rez life, there is no real communal action. They aren’t a dog or a cat. They function with less efficiency than the Amish do. They accomplish less than a two road municipality does. (And as an ex archaeologist….it really bugs me that so many of their costumes are inaccurate.)
Perhaps its time that more Indians of mixed heritage spoke out more about a lot of things. There was some link available on this forum…all I can remember is the line “we are not extinct”. I liked that. I take exception to being told that I am extinct. No matter who is telling me this. Being Indian is not a commodity. I think that mixed blood Indians should be more visable, more vocal, and more of a power. There are a LOT of us. In our numbers there is great strength. If anyone makes any kind of real change, for Indians, or to contribute culturally to the dominant culture…it is going to be US. I think that the time is now.
Your friend,
Lynne
Lynne,
Welcome to the forum. You eloquently voiced what most of us here feel. Don’t we respect our ancestors and look out for our descendents for many generations? That belief can’t coexist with the quantum idea and the idea of restricting tribal membership and makes hypocrites of all those who follow these tenets. We all have the same grandparents.
Techteach
Howdy Lynne,
good to meet and talk to you. I guess there are many differences in our experiences. I appreciate hearing about Eastern Indians. It is a different experience.
I guess you’d just have to listen to the full bloods to understand their point of view. I am not their spokesman, but as I said there is another side not being expressed here. You won’t see it on a computer website or in a chat room, and alto you can read it in a book, that isn’t gonna help a lot in understanding it.
What will help is seein’ the sad face of a full blood who says everything else has been taken from him, now white people (in reality mixed-bloods — but he might call them white) want to take over his tribe, too. He might say “Can’t yall just leave us alone?” I have personally heard that. Don’t consider how you will answer me, but rather how would you answer HIM?
I am not arguing their side because I like it or agree with it. I am because it needs to be heard when the topic of blood quantum comes up, and no one else here is bring up their objections.
I agree, in 100 years the Western tribes will have their blood deluded with more mixed bloods, and those tribes with 1/4th blood quantum membership rules will see many people who have their blood being excluded from tribal membership.
I don’t know about the Eastern tribes having a bloodier history that in the west. Comanches fought off the Spanish for 200 years. Spanish Conquestidores (sp?) who conquered the Inca, the Aztec and Maya — were never able to conquer the Comanche. Neither did the Maxicans after the Spanish left. It was repeating rifles and ovrwhelming numbers that finally defeated them. The history of western tribes is also pretty bloody. Custer massaced the Southern Cheyenne Peace Chief Black Kettle and hundreds of his people about 80 miles north of me. The Osage massacred 300 or so Kiowa about 30 miles NE of me at a place still known today as Cut-throat Gap. The Cherokee, Delaware, Shawnee and others were putting pressure on the Osage, kicking them out of the Ozarks, so they in turn sought hunting grounds to their west. Comanches weren’t called “The Lords of the Southern Plains” for nothin’, and their Sun Dance (which is outlawed) involved having their women stick the heads of their enemies on long pikes. Please don’t confuse this with the Northern Plains Sundance that is completely different.
Just rambling.
Maybe I would feel culturally more at home back East, but I do love Oklahoma so.
Vance
I don’t know how to post to each reply separately, so, I’ll just say,
Thanks Bill, for all your research, and your comment. I thought I got a little too “out there”, and I’m glad that you didn’t think so.
Thank you for the warm welcome, Teachtech. I heartily agree with you, that connections and family make a tribe a tribe, and a people a people, and the rest of it is bull.
And Howdy Vance. You know, I came home from work and typed out a really long post in reply to you, and lost it all because I am a computer idiot and must have hit the wrong key. May I say that it was eloquent? May I say that I touched on many subjects? May I say that after my dinner I have a good recollection of what I wrote/lost, and can still hit the high points without the “flow”? Yes I can.
I wanted to say that I understand where you are coming from in relating the thoughts of full bloods that you have known. I can see that you talk to them and know what is in their hearts. Their viewpoints are indisputable. How would I answer HIM? Shrug, anyone who asks why they can’t just be left alone, has already lost. You’ve seen elephants at the circus. A full grown elephant will be tethered by a simple rope and a stake. We all know that this creature could reek havoc if it wanted to, tear up the stake, the tent, etc. But it doesn’t. This is because it was tethered by a rope and a stake when it was small, and it learned to be helpless. It never occurs to it to pull it out. I think a lot of “full blood” recognized, Indians are like this. This is a dark side of rez life, and more proof that the “plan” works. Did you know that there is a lot of scholarship money available to a recognized tribe?
That they could send people to medical school? And these people could come back and be doctors, and start tribal clinics? That, yes, you COULD use federal money to get started, but that it also could be your own tribal thing, independent? It could be done.
Did you know that when you answer the census, you don’t have to put down your race? OR, you can put down any race you like? It becomes part of the public record. Can you imagine what would happen if thousands of mixed blood Indians put NA on their census forms? What do you think would happen in 20 years time? How would this change the demographics of the US?
You know, a lot of people used to laugh at the Lumbees. They said that they were just black people who wanted to be Indians. I know that a lot of western tribes think that they are just a joke. But now they are the 2nd largest tribe in NC. How did they do this? They never gave up. They are on the verge of getting Fed recognition. The hold up now, is the size of their claimed tribal territory. Why is that? Because their territory is eligible for differing kinds of fed aid, and the gov. doesn’t want it to cover 3 or 4 counties. Its in the process of “negotiation” right now. Its all tied up with fed rules. The Lumbee, and the Cherokee, and all the rest of the recognized tribes, are snuggling into the bossom of the same master.
But if you don’t want what the fed gives out, if you don’t need it, then you don’t have to conform to the template.
As long as you don’t seek the recognition of the fed or the state, you can build up your own bloodlines. You could even declare yourself a tribe. And with enough people, and enough patience, and some work, you would be able to do what the Lumbees did. Do you realize that there are over 55,000 of them? They didn’t get there by instilling cut off points. Its their numbers and their insistant voice that forced this recognition.
Now, after introducing these radical thoughts….I remember when I was a young archaeologist. I read the memoirs of Lt. Timberlake, a Colonial soldier that was sent to interface with the Cherokee in TN. He made small notes about their doings and life style, but one thing he wrote I’ll never forget. He said…paraphrasing…that the Cherokee could stop us now IF they would change the way they lived and banded together. Stop the US at the Appalachinan Mts. And he added, but they won’t. They won’t change the way they live. This reminds me of the elephant tied with a small rope to a small stake.
Once when my family was visiting the Roanoke Colony site, we saw the collection of Indian artifacts. I said to my Dad, “wouldn’t it be great to live like that?” He said: “those people lived in the stone age.” I knew what he meant. He meant that they lived in the stone age long after the Stone Age was over. He had a point. He had Lt Timberlake’s point, though he didn’t know it at the time.
Some Indians changed with the times. Some didn’t. The ones who didn’t get the scraps. The ones who did have a misplaced identity crisis. There isn’t anyone in this nation who can tell you what you are. If the Cherokee won’t take you, the Kiowa won’t take you, screw them. They have the right to order the ranks of their own tribe. But this is where their rights end. This is what I would say to “HIM”. I would say, “you don’t OWN the name Indian. You may OWN the Cherokee tribe, but that is where it ENDS. You can’t make the thousands of mixed blood Indians go away any more than the fed gov can.” You see, Vance, they are playing by the rules that got them into the place that they are today. Little tether, little stake.
And while I am on the subject……to be federally recognized gives you all of the plus and little of the minus. To wit: My first husband was, lets leave it blank, one of the last things he said to me was” you’re not white, you’re a goddamned Indian”. So I get to be an Indian all by myself now. This isn’t right.
About the east coast…hundreds of years of slaughter, fighting with and against the british, the french, the continental armies, whole armies. Hundreds of alliances with and against colonists, against other tribes, the Algonquin fighting the Iroqouis, the slave trade, removals, slaughter both casual and opportunistic.
I had better send this before I cock it up again.
Talk to you later.
Lynne
Lynne, welcome to the forums. You are quite an eloquent writer with excellent points. I am in full agreement with what you say. I would like to see Saponitown become that “tribe” of eastern mixed bloods. Not for formal recognition…….. surely not for a slice of the government pie. (Personally, I have had no good experiences where fed control is concerned)……… but just for that sense of belonging……. just for the pride of exclaiming that which our parents and grandparents had to keep secret.
Vance, there is another, deeper reason the western fullbloods hate us (eastern mixed bloods) with such a passion……… and this forum has proved that point. We were the first to migrate into each new frontier as it opened up. We were the buffer between the western ndns and civilization. We were the leading edge of the westward movement. We were the ndn killers.
Excellent points, Dreaminghawk.
As I was writing to Bill in a geneology thread….since I began my search, I am finding that Mulattos, probably Indians, are coming in on both sides on my father’s family. I have also found out that there have been a couple…so far…marriages between first cousins. As I mentioned to Bill….when it comes to being a “pure blood”….how far is one planning to go to achieve this? When you have a small pool of population, as east coast Indians did, how long can you keep marrying your own relatives?
I have read in the links provided by this forum that Indian populations in this region were reduced to 30 warriors, at time, 5 warriors. The numbers aren’t great and that’s going back to the late 1700’s. I simply do not think that western tribes really get this.
I would like to hear more about the movement of eastern tribes into the west, as you mentioned. I am also not familiar with what nd means, could you spell it out?
Thank you for your words to me.
Lynne
Lynne, many threads on these forums deal with the migration patterns of the eastern mixed blood diaspora. We have discussed a forum just to explore migration patterns and groups. Needless to say, the mixed bloods had a firm grasp of the concept of land ownership and were the first settlers in each new area as each was opened up…. as an area became civilized, the mixed bloods either sold their property or were cheated out of it but at any rate, they moved on to the next frontier……always at the forefront of westward expansion.
ndn = en-dee-en = indian 😉
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