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ndn…I get it now…..heh.
I did read some of those threads on migration, but it went over my head, basically. When I read it, I was following the statements of people whose relatives had gone west.
Back to something that you said earlier, about this forum representing a tribe, of sorts. I think it could be done. It really would depend on the desires of the people here. It would also depend on their goals.
With the internet, this could actually happen. But if you did create a tribe, you also create obligation. This would be an element of anything resembling a tribe at all. Without obligation and connection, you don’t have a tribe, even an internet tribe. Such a thing is a big step. A really big step. Still, almost anything can be done….let me ammend that. Anything can be done. There must exist hundreds of tribes that aren’t recognized by their state..The Lumbees and the Saponi are both recently recognized tribes. Recognized only within MY lifetime. Until then, it was just a tale long told.
I remember reading some article in a magazine about a western tribe that wasn’t recognized by their state, and they just lived around each other, in some city, and did their own thing. I suspect that there must be quite a few tribes like this. They are just doing their own thing. Who knows? In time they may get some recognition.
I am not at all sure if there are some tribes that have received recognition from either the fed or the state, who wanted nothing except recognition. I am not sure what the parameters of such a situation are. For all I know, there is some kind of system that allows for this kind of thing, especially on a state level. You get enough people, you do enough work, you *probably* could get the state to recognize you. State representatives are notorious about that kind of thing, especially if it costs nothing, and eased the egg bag of a lot of voters. I suspect that this is exactly how both the Saponi and the Lumbee were recognized. Its just like setting up a non profit organization…first the state where its set up recognizes you as a non profit, then you apply for federal, it has to be in that order. As I understand it, the main gripe that governments have with recognition, has to do with aid money. Again, I’ll say, I really don’t know what the outcome has been concerning anyone who asked ONLY for recognition. It just may be a whole new ballgame. I don’t know. But over time, it probably could be done. How much time, may be a different matter. The organization behind such a project would be enormous, to say the least. The persistence would have to be there too. And the numbers. You have to have the numbers.
Then again, maybe I misunderstood your statement. Maybe I have gone off on a tangent, that shows you what a high faluting loony I really am. I apologize if I did. I also apologize for being a HF looney, as well.
Good talking to you.
Lynne
Originally posted by Dreaminghawk
Lynne, welcome to the forums. You are quite an eloquent writer with excellent points. I am in full agreement with what you say. I th would like to see Saponitown become that “tribe” of eastern mixed bloods. Not for formal recognition…….. surely not for a slice of the government pie. (Personally, I have had no good experiences where fed control is concerned)……… but just for that sense of belonging……. just for the pride of exclaimingat which our parents and grandparents had to keep secret.
Vance, there is another, deeper reason the western fullbloods hate us (eastern mixed bloods) with such a passion……… and this forum has proved that point. We were the first to migrate into each new frontier as it opened up. We were the buffer between the western ndns and civilization. We were the leading edge of the westward movement. We were the ndn killers. [/QUOTE Dreaminghawk, You have no idea to how happy I am to hear someone speak my feelings outloud. I believe it is time we stand up and be counted. I know my people did what they had to do to survive and survive we did. I remember my grandmother saying one day, not in my lifetime, but one day our people will come out of the woodwork and all will know we are still here. My family left the Indian settlements but never left North Carolina they bought land and raised their children each generation letting the next generation know that we are Sioux. Thanks again! Linda
Oh what a strange day! My husband belongs to a site much like this one but for Mexica people, he came home and told me of the online argument/discussion about Mixed bloods and Full Bloods and how this particular person was saying how we should honor the full bloods and not mix, blah blah blah. Basicly Juans response was, Look I only honor the Creator and I respect those who have earned respect & furthermore he said, I know full bloods who dont give a crap about their blood Quantum, tradition or where they come from and for many other reasons were not worth the spit on his shoe. This came after a debate also about letting White people into our ceremonies, Juan said If that is where Wakantanka has led them to be, then they belong at these Ceremonies as much as we belong at these ceremonies.
AAAHHH when are we going to stop fighting over Blood quantum, you know one of my teachers the other day, made a comment that the issues of class status within each race is more dangerous and debilitating, than blatent colorline racism and I am beginning to think he has a point.
You know if we are not card carrying indians “IT IS OOOOK”
We are still the same in our Soul, heart and mind, we still choose, to sing, go to ceremony, learn our languages, be sober, research, teach our youth, let the youth teach us, learn from our elders, let the elders allow us to take some of the burdens.
At the end of the day or when we pass from this earth it will be Wakantanka, Ate, Jesus who will look at us and say, You did a good job, You fullfilled what My WILL WAS FOR YOU!
Creator is not going to say “Good job in making those people feel like they were less than… YOU”
Again we are all equal, Creator leads us to where he wants us to be. Not because we are Full blood, Mixed Blood or one drop of any blood.
And by the way we are close with All colors of people Full Bloods and Mixed Bloods and we love everyone.
I think it is horrible that people are having bad experiences with the Western Indians about us, I have been blessed then because I have experienced the opposite.
Thats it were picking up Saponi Town and moving to Michigan! LOL Ahh leave it up to me to want to protect everyone from being hurt, angry or upset.
I apoligize if I offend anyone but I am not sorry for what I say.
Lynne,
I recently found out that my grandfather who’s last name was Hyman was actually Tuscarora. I found out while looking through a census book in the library for one of my other grandparents (Haliwa Saponi). I knew my grandfather who looked white and was old enough to be my great grandfather was born in the early 1800’s.. I found his father Ishmeal in the census book (1850) and my great grandmother Cassandra. The census list them as mulatto. I then dug a little deeper and found out they were from Martin Co NC which was a part of Halifax Co at one time and in the early 1700’s when the europeans came to NC on the eastern coast (Manteo, Hamilton, etc) the Tuscarora indians were the only ones there and they helped the europeans to fight in the civil war. There were also Croatan indians there at that time that I am sure mixed with the Tuscarorans. As years past they(Tuscarora and Croaton) migrated up and down the Roanoke River and some ending up in what we now know as the Lumberton and are Lumbee. I went to my friends’ son’s graduation at UNC Pembroke and some people of the Tuscarora tribe were on campus protesting because they said the Lumbee stole their identity. I didn’t understand why they said that at the time because I did not know then that my grandfather was Tuscaroran and had not looked into the history and I did not know that the Lumbee tribe may have originally started from Tuscarora and Croaton tribes. I think the issue may be because the Lumbee have state recognition and the Tuscarora Nation is not reconized. That would be an issue if the Lumbee truly are of Tuscarora and Croaton decent and the tribe they originate from can’t even get state recognition.
All I know is, I am proud to be Native American and the state or federal recognition is not what is important, but that our generation bring back the values of our forefathers.
Sorry I forgot to explain the reason my great grandfather was a Hyman. From what I have found in my research the Tuscarora indians who helped in the war and who became allies to the europeans changed their indian names to the name of the european family that took them either into slavery or as servants to the name of that family.
Hello Jade!
Glad to see that all of your research has been so fruitful. And I do appreciate what you have told me. Someday..heh…when I am no longer working 9 1/2 hour days, I might get to a library. Its fascinating what you have found out.
Its a shame about the contention between the Lumbees and the Tuscarora. You know, years ago I read some study that said that the Lumbee had been traced to the Crowatan territory. It was some kind of thing..parapharasing…about the Indians of the Lost Colony not being Lost afterall. The postulation ran along the lines of…they mixed with the colonists, who were fully absorbed into the tribe, but retained some surnames, which they started using among tribal members as a kind of “new custom” for the tribe. Personally I can see why a tribe would adopt surnames. Its an easy way to keep track of relations and interconnections between people, and this has always been an important item among tribes. As an ex Anthropologist BA, and an ex Archaeologist, MA ( and bear in mind, I emphasise EX)….ancestry has always been important to tribes…all over the world. Tribal people sit around the fire and recount generations based on raw memorization….I see no reason why this would not have been important in precolonial times within the Indian population of the US. We mixed bloods have ever been an adaptable people, taking what is useful and good and rearranging it. I once heard the desendant of slaves tell me that they took the last name of their former master, because it was like a Place Name to them. They came from the land of that person. This tale came from a very old grandmother, probably a GG grandmother, who could tell them a little bit about What Went On in those days. When you think about this as a surname based on a place of origin, it makes even more sense. Many people bear such names from all over the world.
Back to the Lumbee /Tuscarora thing….I, persoanally, would love to see all Indians identify themselves as Indians despite the federal government. I would like to see all Indians, regardless of blood quantum, identify themselves openly as Indians, and let the rules that the govern the limits that are put on being an official Indian…be damned. As I said before, IF this happened, imagine what the demographic of the US would begin to look like. I postulate that things that are important to Indian people would be paid a lot more attention to. And I further claim, that these things that are important to Indian people, would be good for the nation as a whole. You have to build AWARENESS. And blood quantum, tribal recognition, etc, are just blocks to this. It keeps Indian population small, managable, marginal, and largely very quiet…..which translates into weak.
Short aside here…when the boy on the reservation who was calling himself “native nazi” went nuts and shot his grandparents, I heard some commentator on the radio refer to this as a sad event, and then said that he didn’t know what was going on with “those People”. Normally this commentator is a very sympathetic person, but this kind of innate block to his thinking was something that slipped up on him. It slipped up on him because it was THERE in the first place. It would surprize so many people to know just how many of “those People” there are about.
It pains me to hear my daughter, who puts on her makeup in the bathroom, say to herself outloud…”I hate this Indian face” She has those little almond eyes, those stong lines down the face to the mouth, and the little square chin. You know, I don’t want her to hate her Indian face. But there isn’t much I can do about it.
As things stand now…there isn’t a place for her.
Good talking to you,
Lynne
Lynne
I am sorry that I missed much of my culture growing up.My family never told me about my native roots. Funny how you know in your spriit you are someone before you know who that someone is. I have not felt welcomed by my Haliwa Saponi people since my new found knowlege that I am one of them, remember my family left the “area”. Once you leave the invisible wall comes up. I went to our Pow Wow in April and felt in no way as accepted as I did when I went to the Occaneehee Saponi Pow Wow in Clarksville VA. I agree that we should come together as Indians and not be seperated because of what tribe we originate. That is much like the other kinds of racisim in the world. I am proud to be Saponi & Tuscarora . There is one more tribe ( Plummer side ) that I haven’t found info on yet. The Plummers are listed as Mu on 1800’s census and clearly indian but can’t find out what part of Va my gr gr grandfather was from. At this point, I don’t care if I find no other info. I have found enough to know without a doubt I am Native American. The way it looks, I’m just about full blooded just from different tribes. At one point I wanted to have tribal recognition with the Haliwa Saponi, but that doesn’t matter anymore. What matters is that I am Native American and there are other indians who care about me because of our common bond as natives. I ask Grand Father to help me to remember what is important about my heritage and not what the government thinks is what make me an indian. I keep the Native American Ten Commandments posted in front of me at work so I will always remember what is important about who I am how I should live this life the Creator has given me.
Jade
I Love this site there is alot of common ground, I grew up the same way Jade, I had little to know contact with my Fathers side growing up (my native side), I knew I had native blood but I did not know alot about it. It has been a long strange trip here, I found my way here in dreams, my ancestral Grandmother started talking to me in dreams around a young age, I dont dream of her as much any more, infact it has been about 3 years but I think it’s because she was the one leading me back to the roots and because I am here to stay, she is happy. For along time I felt I had to live the right life for the ancestors, but now I know that I need to live the right life for our future generations, that is why we are here, a group of strangers who came to a website that ties us together as family, ancient or not, we are family. Creator has a plan for us, he shared that plan with Auntie Linda and she did his will. How great is Wakantanka!
As far as the Issues at Pow Wow’s, up here it is no different really, it takes some time for Nishinabes to warm up to you and we are talking years sometimes. Anything that I hear that is unfavorable, I walk away, stay out of it because I know that I am not going to change it atleast not right at that moment, I have found more welcome in our Lakota family here, but it is not like that with Lakotas all over, I just got blessed, It sucks that there is so many problems at the Pow Wows. Always remember what you said:
I ask Grand Father to help me to remember what is important about my heritage and not what the government thinks is what make me an indian.
That is exactly how I feel, and no matter where you go it is here that you are always home.
Originally posted by Haliwagirl
Lynne
I am sorry that I missed much of my culture growing up.
You know, sweetie, I think everybody has missed out on a native culture here on the east coast. There really isn’t a great deal of it left.
My family never told me about my native roots.
My Father just left it up to us to connect the dots, basically. We were never radicalised. We were just told, and then the matter was left to just become part of the picture. My best friend has heard my Dad talk about his Haliwa heritage for years and years, and finally it just clicked with her. She said “OH! Thats why you never wear makeup! You’re an Indian!” I had to laugh, she wasn’t kidding either…..its strange just what kind of dots people connect into what kind of picture. Heh…yes, it was a damned silly remark.
Funny how you know in your spriit you are someone before you know who that someone is. I have not felt welcomed by my Haliwa Saponi people since my new found knowlege that I am one of them, remember my family left the “area”. Once you leave the invisible wall comes up. I went to our Pow Wow in April and felt in no way as accepted as I did when I went to the Occaneehee Saponi Pow Wow in Clarksville VA.
That’s a shame, and I really do mean a SHAME, that the Haliwa were so snobby. I have never contacted them, basically because they don’t know me and *I don’t know them. My Haliwa grandma threw my Dad and his siblings into an orphanage, never visted them, remarried, had 7 other kids, and never took the original four out. So we never had a lot to do with her, or the Halifax Co crowd. I saw her once, she only came around when she wanted money from my Dad. Nobody went to her funeral. My Dad never held it against the Haliwa, just her. But nobody was in a hurry to make nice with her side of the family.
On a realted note….I really like the Occaneechee around Hillsborough, they are a very cool crowd.
I agree that we should come together as Indians and not be seperated because of what tribe we originate. That is much like the other kinds of racisim in the world.
You are only right about that. Sometimes it seems to me, that some of these Indians would be pleased if we had not adapted and instead had been wiped out, as some kind of mute testimonial to their martial purity. Screw that. I like being alive.
I am proud to be Saponi & Tuscarora . There is one more tribe ( Plummer side ) that I haven’t found info on yet. The Plummers are listed as Mu on 1800’s census and clearly indian but can’t find out what part of Va my gr gr grandfather was from. At this point, I don’t care if I find no other info. I have found enough to know without a doubt I am Native American. The way it looks, I’m just about full blooded just from different tribes.
Your last sentance brings up an important point. If you are NA, then you are NA, that’s all there is to it.
At one point I wanted to have tribal recognition with the Haliwa Saponi, but that doesn’t matter anymore.
I too, had thought about being recognized by the Haliwa. I thought about it for my Dad’s memory, and for my oldest daughter, who has an interest. I hear that they aren’t taking members because of the federal quest for recognition. I don’t know if that is true, or why it should be true ( since I think its a dumb plan)….but I also look at it this way….it largely fake. I mean, when my Dad was born, the Haliwa were not recognized by anybody….is he then less Haliwa now that they are recognized? He was proud of his NA hertiage before he had a federally recognized reason to be proud. He was just proud of what he was. I think that this way, his way and YOUR way, are the best, and the truly real way to be.
What matters is that I am Native American and there are other indians who care about me because of our common bond as natives.
You know, I think that is the real reason for tribes. And it could be that some tribes have forgotten about this.
I ask Grand Father to help me to remember what is important about my heritage and not what the government thinks is what make me an indian.
Heh. Screw the government. The government is bent on keeping numbers low and voices small.
I keep the Native American Ten Commandments posted in front of me at work so I will always remember what is important about who I am how I should live this life the Creator has given me.
Good. If any voice lives thru your blood, it sounds to me like that is the real one.
Lynne
Jade
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