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I am not directly related to Red bird smith pictured here not directly anyway . but that other fellow looks familiar enough. so they are calling him a Jew. now don’t you just love dna.. ROTF! :p:p:p I am not so sure of the story behind that picture but ………..
Mr Red Bird Smith thinks he is full blooded native . I mean he started the Kituwah right . and I don’t think he looks like that other guy very much but his sons do more so .
but if that other guy pictured there is a founder of a indian Smith line , then it looks like we might be Jewish 😮
now dna is just a pip..
As far as the Smith lines controversies I would like to add to that mess , that no one really knows what the name “Issa” is , not really.
and J can be Issacar or Esaw these are both Issa and both could be J’s or maybe I’s too . so J’s proves nothing about when that J came here. only in the mind of a scientist .
Both could have gotten here long before the events that caused the bronze age collapse that is memorialized at Serpent mound.
that event also memorialized on the Pictish Rhyniestones which was probably 2800 or 3200 years ago though scientism is trying to make it 10000-12000 years .
but “Re waters” story wasn’t no 10,000 years ago.
Nannanae;37635 wrote: I saw nothing about Smiths in any post made yet .
except one person refusing to tell about her Smiths.
I’ve posted on my Smiths in other threads here. They are from the Jones/Smith of Indiana group. Dora Moses Cornelius Skinner Smith b. 7 Jun 1876 Jay County Indiana passed the Blackfoot oral history in my family. He’s the son of Joseph O Smith b. abt 1851 IN, grandson of David B Smith b.1812 OH. David B Smith is the son of Francis Smith b.1779 VA and Massa Jones b. 1781 VA. I have found at least three other living descendants of Francis and Massa with Blackfoot oral history in their families.
Oral history in my family and at least one other family says that they changed their name to Smith when they came from VA.
I’m not seeing enough specifics in your posts that can tell me if your Smiths and mine are related or not.
MarcSnelling;37638 wrote: I’ve posted on my Smiths in other threads here. They are from the Jones/Smith of Indiana group. Dora Moses Cornelius Skinner Smith b. 7 Jun 1876 Jay County Indiana passed the Blackfoot oral history in my family. He’s the son of Joseph O Smith b. abt 1851 IN, grandson of David B Smith b.1812 OH. David B Smith is the son of Francis Smith b.1779 VA and Massa Jones b. 1781 VA. I have found at least three other living descendants of Francis and Massa with Blackfoot oral history in their families.Oral history in my family and at least one other family says that they changed their name to Smith when they came from VA.I’m not seeing enough specifics in your posts that can tell me if your Smiths and mine are related or not.
we supposedly have a different Smith line and we have been here before.. we do match skinner/ Peltier lines I see . ella sturgeon and Thomas O Smith
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=Search&includedb=&lang=en&ti=&surname=sturgeon&stype=Exact&given=ella&bplace=&byear=&brange=0&dplace=&dyear=&drange=0&mplace=&myear=&mrange=0&father=&mother=&spouse=smith&skipdb=&period=All&submit.x=Searchhttp://shpo.sc.gov/res/native/Pages/nasites.aspx
Now supposedly this is his line.http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=dave%2Dhardin&id=I9948
Hardin/Harden, Guy, Colvin, Walker, Smith, Stone and related families of Chester Co., SC
except I do know a little bit about a few of these names but I don’t know anything about that area.
but if folllow those smiths around you see there is one family who has only one child. and that alway looks suspicious to me , because it looks to much like an adoption. also in this line is up a few generation is three kids who are not put in a will of one of the Smith men. and well it makes you wonder what happened then too.
from at least Eliza Brooks born in Troup co GA onward to TX these Smiths are marrying Indians( sturgeon ,carter , walker, Gore etc) and I don’t know who they are before they get to GA . by the time they get to Lamar Texas they are part natives at least. and I have no idea what is going on in SC around there. If you study over those records it just makes me ask questions I will never be able to answer because I don’t know anything about that line, and I was told nothing. so I don’t know if this is that Smith family or not. it could be , but I don’t know . and what about those three kids not in the will , is that my real line? and that only son MOSES was he adopted ? or some other mans son ? Imean it is the TOT time frame and so many died.. really because that Smith who is the ” father” of Moses ,,,,( think about the word Moses and how there is no other Moses in that family) you know Moses had a unique childhood right ? )…. and that Smith didn’t have more kids with another woman. but I can’t guess / but I do know my mom and sister look like” real native American ” because of that smith line.. and they ‘look’ just like that jewish guy does with those pretty feathers..^^ 😛 I find the genealogy whole thing confusion because I know nothing about that line at all and I won’t guess . but I am sure that Christopher Smith and his dad Paul Smith( especially the dad ) have got to be my grandfathers Smith line someplace back there. because breeds breed true.. I am not a genealogist or even a historian and I don’t trust myself unless I know what I am looking for.. and I don’t trust my guesses at all when it comes to paper records( except one ) .. and trust other peoples guesses even less.. right now I would be happy with someone who knows that line and knew their history would appear , but only a few cousin have appeared and no one knows much except what I was told that my ” grandpa was indian” and that his mom Ms Ella Sturgeon was at least half. I don’t know about the Smith line and those records. I have no idea if they are registered or with what tribe. I don’t know squat. but thank you Mark for trying to help . I really just would hope someone recognizes Paul Smith.. and or knows about that phenotype or something that give me a clue to run on….
there is like 2 or 3 Smiths in that Smith line too.
so I think explain that idea of “breeds breed true ” I just realized what that sounded like maybe.
ok we have breeds of animals because they breed true.
the breeds are totally controlled by males and groups of males.
so a VA Smith and a TX Smith should breed true if they are the same line .. if mated to the same Type if they are the same line/ breed/ clan / etc…
so a VA smith mated to the some clan of blacks with the same linear female line and all kids in that equation will produce the same as a TX Smith mated to the same combinations.
so it will hold true with black asians and whites.
if they are the same line will reproduce the same as anyone else in their line in that
“race” or group of males/clans and they would all look like siblings.
Meaning you will never find a black Angus type in a herd of Holstein unless a black Angus male got into the pen and mated with Holstein cow. There is no way for a Holstein Cow is going to have a black Angus calf without a black Angus male . and all animals and plants are exactly the same.
SO if that link is all the same Smiths then I should be able to find VA Smiths with the same exact phenotype range as me and my sister and my mom and those Smiths from Texas/ Colorado.
so I am looking for all Smith with that phenotype.
does that work? to either prove or disprove that ancestry lineage and paper work.
so anyone who can help me with that same phenotype info I would really love that info.
so I suspect it might be german ( maybe like Bohemian ) or native or maybe like Tartar or maybe north African something like that .
then if they know the name of that Y line/ or it’s clan or whatever I would love to know that too.
but the phenotype needs to match or else it is not a Holstein..
Nannanae;37646 wrote: we supposedly have a different Smith line and we have been here before.. we do match skinner/ Peltier lines I see . ella sturgeon and Thomas O Smith
When were we here before? I don’t recall a previous conversation about these Smith lines. Skinner is a middle name for my ancestor, perhaps from a surname of one of his ancestors, but not one that I have found. Who are some specific people from the Skinner / Peltier lines you mention?
The Lamar TX Smith line you mention that goes back to Moses Smith b. abt 1757 is listed in Prince William VA – marrying Mary Boyd and having children in Chester Co SC. My Francis Smith is about the same age as their children, but he came from what is now WV. I’m not seeing the connection or proof of no connection here.
on the Skinner
my paternal grandmother is a Skinner, I think it goes back to Peltier in Canada . thus a english and french version of the same name or group .
I dont know for sure what ” race ” it was in Canada before the 1700’s . but in Indiana and Illinois it had some native connections. but then one of mine Skinner male married a great great grandma I think her mom was
Moravian( Moss ) and then her father was German immigrant named Henry Shiner .
I don’t know if the Moravians Moss were mixed native or not. I have always just thought of her as ‘bohemian” sounds like more fun than the rest of my mixed natives.. . but really who knows.
here is a little bit of the political stuff going on in that time frame.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaskaskia
and you might want to read about IN and IL in 1700’s it sure appears to be getting crazy with all of the tribes moving into the same areas and trying to find a way to live in a different environments.
on the Smiths , I don’t know . I don’t know. and I don’t trust paper.
way to many wars and too many wood sheds in this world.
So are you talking about William Henry Shiner (b. 27 Feb 1854 Knox Ohio – d. 1928 McLean, Illinois) married to Elizabeth Ann Skinner (b. 8 Oct 1866 McLean, Illinois- d. 8 Feb 1945) ?
my paternal maternal line with collins ,ross, skinners , shiner, Shoeboots
I packed my papers and so am not going to get dates..and this from memory .
NO my William Skinner (IL ?)married
Arminta Shiner f. Henry Shiner ( born germany) and m. (?) Moss or mossman?)
son Ayrold E Skinner b.MO married
( great grandma who told me the ancient stories died at 91 years old ) Vivian F Ross born AR. her mother Jemima Collins( Nancy Hopkins and John Collins) and father was Robert Ross ( Elizabeth jane Shoeboots and Jordon Ross)
Nannanae;37679 wrote: on the Skinner
my paternal grandmother is a Skinner, I think it goes back to Peltier in Canada . thus a english and french version of the same name or group .
I dont know for sure what ” race ” it was in Canada before the 1700’s . but in Indiana and Illinois it had some native connections. but then one of mine Skinner male married a great great grandma I think her mom was
Moravian( Moss ) and then her father was German immigrant named Henry Shiner .
I don’t know if the Moravians Moss were mixed native or not. I have always just thought of her as ‘bohemian” sounds like more fun than the rest of my mixed natives.. . but really who knows. .
Ok I found your line with Skinner, Shiner, Allen and Miller. Not seeing any direct links but some shared locations and similar names from my line with Mauler, Beeler (Bohler), Stainbrook (Steinbruchel), Ihinger (Shinger).
Skinner and Shiner are close enough to Shinger that they could all be the same name, or two names or three names?
Your German side with Malvenia Allen is in Muskingum Ohio the same time as my German side. There is no oral history passed to me from this line that says if they were mixed at this generation – Christena Stainbrook – my grandmother’s father’s mother (there is a picture in my album). There is oral history from other families on my grandmother’s father’s father’s (Potter) side though. They are cousins to Bunch and Collins families on that line. So her children are mixed for sure.
My Abraham Stainbrook married Sarah ‘Sally’ Weller in Muskingum 5 Jul 1821. Henry Weller and Elizabeth Snyder is another marriage. My Peninah or Perniah “Paulina” Catherine Ihinger (Shinger) is born there the in 1836 two years after your Malvenia Allen. Catherine Ihinger married Daniel Stainbrook . The Stainbrooks were from Brush Creek Township in particular and Abraham and Sally Stainbrook had eleven children all in Muskingum between 1822 and 1846. Abraham was born 1796 in PA.
Nannanae;37679 wrote:
here is a little bit of the political stuff going on in that time frame.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaskaskia
and you might want to read about IN and IL in 1700’s it sure appears to be getting crazy with all of the tribes moving into the same areas and trying to find a way to live in a different environments..
Yeah, hadn’t read that one before but have looked at a lot of tribes that went through Indiana. That’s why they called it Indiana is what I was taught Indiana=land of the Indians, Indianapolis=city of Indians. My earliest Drybread ancestor is in Indiana territory in the 1790s.
Nannanae;37679 wrote:
on the Smiths , I don’t know . I don’t know. and I don’t trust paper.
way to many wars and too many wood sheds in this world.
This line connects to my Smith line through my Grandmother. The Indiana Jones/Smith line is through her mother. This is her father’s line. It fits the Saponi migration and intermarriage pattern for sure.
thanks Mark
well my paper issue with that Smith line that supposedly is from VA to SC ” John Smith”.. is if you follow all that line back at rootsweb it has the same group tracing it back to England and another to Maryland and some have it coming back from South SC to VA back to SC in time.
I know my indian family including maybe my( in)Deans went to ( abducted , stolen or taken )and came back from England by early 1700s. so any “JOHN Smith” on a boat may not be from England but went to England and back again…
then given native people propensity to pick a famous name ie ‘George Washingtons’ or whoever they liked most! to use as their own names . I can easy see huge numbers of the Powhatan or any in his confederation calling themselves ‘John Smith” for heaven sake. and any of them could have come back and forth from Europe a fews times or even worked on a boat in all that time.
so for sure the only way to know anything for sure is to find out more about that ‘ clan’ ideas of what that line is.
and the pheno’s needs to match or it is not the same line .
It has a phenotype that can come from anyplace brownish ..but to know for sure who it is would be to figure out it’s y line dna and see who all is matching with it . makes me think about the big brown Irish guy in the kids movie “
” Brave” if that is the types of Ireland and it is true for the other clans , what was the big brown guys clan?
then whatever he was is what my Smiths were. because those are the same family of types of natives just shave them.. but scientism saw Chinese… so they find Chinese come hell or high water..one way or the other they find chinese..
so I want to know what that line thinks their ancestor was before
“science(tism-ish) computer garbage told them who they are (always indisputably of course ) with all it preverbal big sticks and
before all it’s true believers with all their sticks and
before all those ideas had their way with them. so who matches them is what will tell me what I want to know for now. and there is just way to many John Smiths in this world.
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