- This topic has 9 voices and 15 replies.
-
Posts
-
Here is some more info on the Saponi movements.
http://virginiahistory.hypermart.ne…ians/Saponi.htm
“The Saponi tribe also known as the Monasukapanough tribe. Between 1650 and 1660 they moved southwest to the Otter Creek area. In 1670 they were visited by Lederer and in 1671 by Thomas Batts. After this they moved with the Tutelo to the junction of the Staunton and Dan Rivers, where each occupied an island on the Roanoke River in Mecklenburg County. In 1701 they again moved south to present day Salisbury, North Carolina, both moves were to prevent attacks from the Iroquis. They again moved, this time toward the white settlements establishing themselves 15 miles west of Windsor North Carolina. A little while later Governor Spottswood placed them and the Tutelo and other tribes near Gholsonville in Brunswick County. Most of the Indians moved north into Pennsylvania after the Iroquis signed the Albany Treaty. One band as late as 1756 remained in North Carolina, it comprised only 14 men and 14 woman, it was later adopted by the Iroquis. Those that had left for Pennsylvania remained there until 1778, locating themselves on the upper waters of the Susquehanna River. Most of the tribe then moved north to Ithaca New York, before moving on to Canada.”
Below is info from the Tutelo video documentary, Mecklenburgy County history book Life on the Roaring Roanoke and the book Brunswick County VA 1720-1975 and other named sources:
When you read something with Saponi history please post it on this thread along with the source. Some of the reports may not have as good sources as we’d like. However, as we piece together this puzzle even these may play an important role.
On September 1, 1661 Thomas Batts and Abraham Wood led an expedition from Fort Henry to Totero town. They headed due west from Fort Henry which I believe was near Petersburg. Four days into the trip they came to a Saponi Village. This would put Saponi Town near Appomatix County VA. On Sept 9 they came to Totero Town located where present day Salem Va. is located.
The Saponi tribe also known as the Monasukapanough tribe. Between 1650 and 1660 they moved southwest to the Otter Creek area. In 1670 they were visited by Lederer and in 1671 by Thomas Batts. http://virginiahistory.hypermart.net/American_Indians/Saponi.htm
In 1672 the Saponi and Tutelo banded together and moved to Clarksville Va with the Occaneechi on islands adjacent to Occaneechi Island. (Video) The Tutelo were on the island above the Occaneechi and the Saponi was on the Island below the Occaneechi. (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
[additional source] After this they moved with the Tutelo to the junction of the Staunton and Dan Rivers, where each occupied an island on the Roanoke River in Mecklenburg County. http://virginiahistory.hypermart.net/American_Indians/Saponi.htm
1675 Bacon rebellion
At some point after the Bacon battle the Occaneechi moved to Hillsborough NC on the Eno river.
1680 – Nine tribes signed the Treaty of Middle plantation making them tributary Indians dependant upon the king of England.
1681 Seneca Indians had a battle with the Occaneechi on Occaneechi Island and lost the Island to the Seneca (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
1682 Occaneechi seen North of Occaneechi Island and planning to move again this year (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
In 1700 the Saponi and Tutelo moved North of Emporia VA to the Fort on Three Creeks on the Merrhin River. (video)
1701 The John Lawson visits the Occaneechi on the Eno river near Hillsborough NC. (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
1701 The Saponi and Tutelo were on the Yadkin River. (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke). The Saponi and Tutelo moved to Salisbury NC on the Yadkin river. (video)
In 1701 they (Saponi and Tutelo ) again moved south to present day Salisbury, North Carolina, both moves were to prevent attacks from the Iroquis. http://virginiahistory.hypermart.net/American_Indians/Saponi.htm
Some Saponi (Sapponys, the Occaneches, and Steukenhocks) moved to Cliffs of the Neuse in Wayne Co NC. “This People is now made up of the Remnant of Several other Nations, of which the most considerable is the Sapponys, the Occaneches, and Steukenhocks, who not finding themselves Separately Numerous, enough for their Defence, have agreed to unite into one Body, and all of them go under the name of Sapponys.” http://www.oldekinstongazette.com/clifneus.htm
1701 Douglas Rights notes in his volume “The American Indian in North Carolina,” that in 1701, the Saponi and Tutelo, seeking strength in number, had moved together to Bertie County, a farther reach of Tuscarora territory. http://www.oldekinstongazette.com/clifneus.htm
They again moved, this time toward the white settlements establishing themselves 15 miles west of Windsor North Carolina. http://virginiahistory.hypermart.net/American_Indians/Saponi.htm
In 1708 the Saponi moved South of Emporia VA to Unotie. In 1711 the Occaneechi joined them and in 1712 the Tutelo joined them as well.
1709 some of the Occaneechi, Saponi and Tutelo moved to Saponitown near Winsdor NC (Indian Woods). (Video ) Called Sapona on P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke
1709 Some moved to Surry County Va (next county to the East of Petersburg) (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
By 1712 The Stukanox, Occaneechi, Saponi and Tutelo had moved to a tract of land on the Meherrin River east of Fort Christanna in Mecklenburg Co. or Brunswick Co. P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
By 1712, North Carolina offered them terms to help fight the fierce Tuscarora, in return for a promised Albemarle relocation. [It seems that they helped defeat the Tuscarora at Fort Neoroka. http://www.oldekinstongazette.com/clifneus.htm
1714 they became tributary Indians. (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
In 1714 the Occaneechi, Saponi, Eno, Stuckanocks, Totero (Tutelo) moved to Fort Christanna in Lawrenceville, Va. All Indian at Ft Christanna from this point on called Saponi. . (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke). (P 17Brunswick Co VA)
The Nottaway and Meherrins had lands reserved on the North Side of the river but would not come.
1717 Eleven Catawba Indian children were sent to the fort to be educated.
1718 the Fort Closed. (P29 Brunswick Co VA)
In 1720 some were still in the area (video). For at least 15 years after the fort closed (until at least 1732) some Indians remained at FC. (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke).
1721 Chickasaw Indians from N. Mississippi visited the fort in Oct 1721
In 1722 there came peace with the Iroquois (Video). During this time they were being attacked by the Tuscaroras of NC. (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke).
They moved with the Catawba in South Carolina and quickly came back to Ft Christanna. Video
1727, October The Catawbas made hostile overtures and “designed to take position of the fort in which there were several Catawbas. . (P29 Brunswick Co VA)
1728 Indians still on FC land when Byrd sent huntsmen on the Dividing Line expedition. (P29 Brunswick Co VA)
1729 Moved to South Carolina with Catawbas. (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
1731 August four Saponi killed by Nottoway while working on Colonel Robert Munford’s plantation in FC area. (Brunswick Co Book)
1732 Returned to Va and given the right to settle other lands (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
Around 1740 many Saponi and Tutelo went North. Occaneechi not mentioned (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke). (P30 Brunswick Co VA)
12 May 1742, Orange Co..Va, reference to about twenty-six of the Saponi Indians that inhabit on Colonel Spotswood’s land. Charles Griffin had been a white man who taught school in the Saponi Indian town at Fort Christiana from January 1715 NS to the spring of 1718. From Linda’s post.
Some individuals likely remained. (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke).
[additional source] Saponi and Tutelo moved North to Penn and many stayed in Brunswick Co. Video
The Great Occaneechi trading path shifted from Clarksville about 30 miles down stream to a place called Moniseep. (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke). Looking on a map this would be Roanoke Rapids. THIS COULD TIE INTO CRYSTAL’S COMMUNITY OR THE HALIWA-SAPONI.
1744 They were in Shomikin Penn.
Next they moved to Skorgori Village in Cataeissa Penn.
In 1753 some moved to Tioga Penn
1769 Some Indians still in the Fort Christanna area. (P30 Brunswick Co VA)
Approximately 1820 (50 years from the last documented Saponi) Matilda Barner is born on Fort Christanna land and reported by her Granddaughter Beulah Hearthwell Rice to be an American Indian, Slave on Winfield Phipps’ plantation (documented in Travis family history book). Beulah also reported her mother-in-law Ann Walker to be Native American on FC lands. Polly Jackson also born around 1820 on FC land is said in oral family history to be Indian with deep seated face and hair waist length (souce David Travis and documented family history.
Preliminary Conclusions: One thing that seems evident with so much movement is that there were bands of Occaneechi, Saponi, Tutelo, etc moving about. This is as opposed to one single tribe moving about as implied in most of the reports.
[This message has been edited by barryc (edited 05-29-2001).]
VERY INTERSTING Barry,
With a band of the Saponi moving into Surry County, this is just a few years prior to Armstead Peters listed as FPC in 1750 in Surry County. This Armstead owned property which during that time frame meant either Native American or wealthy African American. His son marries into the Blizzard line which is another “Saponi” name that is listed as FPC. This would explain why the Saponi Peters are living in Surry County in the mid 1700’s.
Thanks for that info.
Crystal,
Blizzard line which is another “Saponi” name
I was born in Nicholas Co. WV and this name is a common one in that area. Also Buzzard.
Brenda
Mecou Brenda,
How are you doing? Glad to see your reply. I am presuming that we need to add the name Blizzard to the list of Saponi names. Seems to me that they and the Peters are originating in Surry County (aka Surry County Indians) and acquired the names of Blizzard and Peters through Christianization. I’m finding them back as far as the late 1600’s. I did find documentation of the Natives of Surry County being prosecuted for stealing and killing the hogs on Hogg Island (which is where the colonists in Jamestown kept their livestock). Rather humorous. Guess it’s no different than modern day cow tipping
Talk soon
Crystal
Hi Barry:
Just wanted to include the name RICHARDSON to your list of possible HALIWA-SAPONI.
Please read my post.
Thanks
Ressa
Barry, I was re-reading the TIMELINE from Richard & Vickie Haithcock’s book and extracted some interesting questions. Wonder if any of our readers can answer any of them?
From the Mo Saponi site:
In 1728 Saponi Chief Mahenip was in court for “firing the woods” or “slashing and burning”, a tradition our people have proudly kept for hundreds of years.
Question: Who was Chief Mahenip?
1728–
COMMISSIONERS RUN THE VIRGINIA-CAROLINA DIVIDING LINE
In 1728 the boundary line between Virginia and North Carolina was run by commissioners and surveyors from each colony. For guides and hunters they engaged two Saponi Indians from Fort Christanna. One of these who stayed with the party as it advanced westward through the swamps and woods told the names of the streams in his own language with the meaning in English. From him was learned the language and fork-lore of the Saponi tribe, and from the experiences of this expedition was learned the nature of the country in the lower Southwest. The story of the surveying and the description of the country is given in the writings of William Byrd, who served as the chief commissioner from Virginia.
Kegley’s Virginia Frontier by Frederick B. Kegley
Question: Wouldn’t it be great to know the names of these two guides?
1728–
One of the Great Saponi man committed murder while drunk and was tried and hung. The Saponi were disturbed about this, because it was felt he should have been tried by Indians and it was believed that if one of our Saponi was hung the spirit wouldn’t be able to exit through the mouth because of the hanging and the obstruction of the tounge obstructing the airway.
Question: Does anybody identify this Saponi?
Was it Captain Tom? Does anybody know who he was?
1730–
In 1730 the members of the late Virginia Indian Company petitioned for 1000 acres “where Fort Christianna stood”, on the south side of Meherrin River and back into the woods, and 1000 acres on the north side of the river. They also requested that 23,040 acres of land formerly assigned for the Sapony Indians be laid out and granted to the petitioners who pointed out that they had invested money in buildings and improvements at the Fort. This was done.
Question: Does anybody know what the location of all these acres are located in present day Virginia and North Carolina?
1730– Virginia
Years later a ragged and sulky “Charles Griffin” was brought to Orange County, Virginia for stealing hogs and starting forest fires. The schoolmaster had left his name, but not his lesson among the tribesmen
Question: Does this mean that Griffin married a Saponi woman and left his name among them? If so does anybody know Charles Griffin ‘s Genealogy?
Some very provocative questions. I just decided that me and Chelsea (my 8 year old) are going to stop at the ECU library after her dr’s appt. and look up Byrd’s account on the surveying of the border. We may not know that guide’s name, but perhaps he can tell us a lot about himself.
I don’t believe the head man who was hanged at Fort Christanna was ever named. It seems to me I heard Captain Tom referred to after this hanging. I’ve wondered about this Captain Tom, if he might be connected to the Chief Harris who went to Canada to fight with the Tories.
Checking into the documents about the land grants to the Virginia Land Company might be productive. Probably somebody’s done it already and it was inconclusive, but who knows, maybe nobody’s looked under that rock. It is nice to know, however, that some of Barry’s family bought a big chunk of that land back in the 1870’s.
It may be Mr. Griffin had children with a Saponi woman. From what Lawson described about the customs in the region, it would have been part of civic strategy for a woman to have taken him in hand. On the other hand, I’ve also heard that it was common for Indians to take on the name of someone white they worked for, or just to be called that by whites.
There’s also something from Ball’s research in “Slaves in the Family.” He was surprised to find that very few of the slaves previously owned by his ancestors took on the Ball name. Most just seemed to pick something they fancied. Perhaps there were Saponi named Griffin because they liked the guy. If he was as nice as they say, there would have bee 50 or so kids who would have remembered him well.
Brenda on the Mahenip name and involvement you will most likely have to go directly to Richard Haithcock cause as far I have heard in searching this name out as well, only he has the scoop on Mahenip. Don’t know why. I have his new address and Donna is working on getting his e-mail address. Hopefully soon the issue will get resolved as well as getting some answers to some very perplexing questions. The goal as always is to get all us Saponi working together and in a unified front. Bila huk oca hoc ne de wa ha
Linda says….”Most just seemed to pick something they fancied. Perhaps there were Saponi named Griffin because they liked the guy.”
There was a commissioner of Indian Affairs that served the colonies in late 1600-early 1700 and his name was John Collins. Is this how the Saponi Collins came by their name?
Check the post on GRIFFIN . I found it very interesting.
Brenda
You know, it’s probably a bit of all three. A man with influence is going to be taken in hand by some of the women, some people working around him would get labelled with his name, or choose to take it if just to butter him up.
Wow, I hadn’t seen this post before, great information and links to Saponi timelines and travel routes; I thought I would bring it back.
barryc wrote: Below is info from the Tutelo video documentary, Mecklenburgy County history book Life on the Roaring Roanoke and the book Brunswick County VA 1720-1975 and other named sources:
When you read something with Saponi history please post it on this thread along with the source. Some of the reports may not have as good sources as we’d like. However, as we piece together this puzzle even these may play an important role.
On September 1, 1661 Thomas Batts and Abraham Wood led an expedition from Fort Henry to Totero town. They headed due west from Fort Henry which I believe was near Petersburg. Four days into the trip they came to a Saponi Village. This would put Saponi Town near Appomatix County VA. On Sept 9 they came to Totero Town located where present day Salem Va. is located.
The Saponi tribe also known as the Monasukapanough tribe. Between 1650 and 1660 they moved southwest to the Otter Creek area. In 1670 they were visited by Lederer and in 1671 by Thomas Batts. http://virginiahistory.hypermart.net/American_Indians/Saponi.htm
In 1672 the Saponi and Tutelo banded together and moved to Clarksville Va with the Occaneechi on islands adjacent to Occaneechi Island. (Video) The Tutelo were on the island above the Occaneechi and the Saponi was on the Island below the Occaneechi. (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
[additional source] After this they moved with the Tutelo to the junction of the Staunton and Dan Rivers, where each occupied an island on the Roanoke River in Mecklenburg County. http://virginiahistory.hypermart.net/American_Indians/Saponi.htm
1675 Bacon rebellion
At some point after the Bacon battle the Occaneechi moved to Hillsborough NC on the Eno river.
1680 – Nine tribes signed the Treaty of Middle plantation making them tributary Indians dependant upon the king of England.
1681 Seneca Indians had a battle with the Occaneechi on Occaneechi Island and lost the Island to the Seneca (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
1682 Occaneechi seen North of Occaneechi Island and planning to move again this year (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
In 1700 the Saponi and Tutelo moved North of Emporia VA to the Fort on Three Creeks on the Merrhin River. (video)
1701 The John Lawson visits the Occaneechi on the Eno river near Hillsborough NC. (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
1701 The Saponi and Tutelo were on the Yadkin River. (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke). The Saponi and Tutelo moved to Salisbury NC on the Yadkin river. (video)
In 1701 they (Saponi and Tutelo ) again moved south to present day Salisbury, North Carolina, both moves were to prevent attacks from the Iroquis. http://virginiahistory.hypermart.net/American_Indians/Saponi.htm
Some Saponi (Sapponys, the Occaneches, and Steukenhocks) moved to Cliffs of the Neuse in Wayne Co NC. “This People is now made up of the Remnant of Several other Nations, of which the most considerable is the Sapponys, the Occaneches, and Steukenhocks, who not finding themselves Separately Numerous, enough for their Defence, have agreed to unite into one Body, and all of them go under the name of Sapponys.” http://www.oldekinstongazette.com/clifneus.htm
1701 Douglas Rights notes in his volume “The American Indian in North Carolina,” that in 1701, the Saponi and Tutelo, seeking strength in number, had moved together to Bertie County, a farther reach of Tuscarora territory. http://www.oldekinstongazette.com/clifneus.htm
They again moved, this time toward the white settlements establishing themselves 15 miles west of Windsor North Carolina. http://virginiahistory.hypermart.net/American_Indians/Saponi.htm
In 1708 the Saponi moved South of Emporia VA to Unotie. In 1711 the Occaneechi joined them and in 1712 the Tutelo joined them as well.
1709 some of the Occaneechi, Saponi and Tutelo moved to Saponitown near Winsdor NC (Indian Woods). (Video ) Called Sapona on P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke
1709 Some moved to Surry County Va (next county to the East of Petersburg) (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
By 1712 The Stukanox, Occaneechi, Saponi and Tutelo had moved to a tract of land on the Meherrin River east of Fort Christanna in Mecklenburg Co. or Brunswick Co. P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
By 1712, North Carolina offered them terms to help fight the fierce Tuscarora, in return for a promised Albemarle relocation. [It seems that they helped defeat the Tuscarora at Fort Neoroka. http://www.oldekinstongazette.com/clifneus.htm
1714 they became tributary Indians. (P22 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
In 1714 the Occaneechi, Saponi, Eno, Stuckanocks, Totero (Tutelo) moved to Fort Christanna in Lawrenceville, Va. All Indian at Ft Christanna from this point on called Saponi. . (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke). (P 17Brunswick Co VA)
The Nottaway and Meherrins had lands reserved on the North Side of the river but would not come.
1717 Eleven Catawba Indian children were sent to the fort to be educated.
1718 the Fort Closed. (P29 Brunswick Co VA)
In 1720 some were still in the area (video). For at least 15 years after the fort closed (until at least 1732) some Indians remained at FC. (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke).
1721 Chickasaw Indians from N. Mississippi visited the fort in Oct 1721
In 1722 there came peace with the Iroquois (Video). During this time they were being attacked by the Tuscaroras of NC. (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke).
They moved with the Catawba in South Carolina and quickly came back to Ft Christanna. Video
1727, October The Catawbas made hostile overtures and “designed to take position of the fort in which there were several Catawbas. . (P29 Brunswick Co VA)
1728 Indians still on FC land when Byrd sent huntsmen on the Dividing Line expedition. (P29 Brunswick Co VA)
1729 Moved to South Carolina with Catawbas. (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
1731 August four Saponi killed by Nottoway while working on Colonel Robert Munford’s plantation in FC area. (Brunswick Co Book)
1732 Returned to Va and given the right to settle other lands (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke)
Around 1740 many Saponi and Tutelo went North. Occaneechi not mentioned (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke). (P30 Brunswick Co VA)
12 May 1742, Orange Co..Va, reference to about twenty-six of the Saponi Indians that inhabit on Colonel Spotswood’s land. Charles Griffin had been a white man who taught school in the Saponi Indian town at Fort Christiana from January 1715 NS to the spring of 1718. From Linda’s post.
Some individuals likely remained. (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke).
[additional source] Saponi and Tutelo moved North to Penn and many stayed in Brunswick Co. Video
The Great Occaneechi trading path shifted from Clarksville about 30 miles down stream to a place called Moniseep. (P23 Life by the Roaring Roanoke). Looking on a map this would be Roanoke Rapids. THIS COULD TIE INTO CRYSTAL’S COMMUNITY OR THE HALIWA-SAPONI.
1744 They were in Shomikin Penn.
Next they moved to Skorgori Village in Cataeissa Penn.
In 1753 some moved to Tioga Penn
1769 Some Indians still in the Fort Christanna area. (P30 Brunswick Co VA)
Approximately 1820 (50 years from the last documented Saponi) Matilda Barner is born on Fort Christanna land and reported by her Granddaughter Beulah Hearthwell Rice to be an American Indian, Slave on Winfield Phipps’ plantation (documented in Travis family history book). Beulah also reported her mother-in-law Ann Walker to be Native American on FC lands. Polly Jackson also born around 1820 on FC land is said in oral family history to be Indian with deep seated face and hair waist length (souce David Travis and documented family history.
Preliminary Conclusions: One thing that seems evident with so much movement is that there were bands of Occaneechi, Saponi, Tutelo, etc moving about. This is as opposed to one single tribe moving about as implied in most of the reports.
[This message has been edited by barryc (edited 05-29-2001).]
sammarroq wrote: Wow, I hadn’t seen this post before, great information and links to Saponi timelines and travel routes; I thought I would bring it back.
Well, I had to bring it back again…Where can I find this book “The Roaring Roanoke.” And does anyone know the video talked about here? I would like to see if I can get them at my library.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
