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BlackCoyote;37028 wrote: Thank you for this cuz!
Thanks for this list. I was familiar with some of these researchers, but not all of them. I’ll check out all the links.
I just ran across this one.. There’s a lot of information on history in this article.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gowenrf/malangu.htm
seeker;37739 wrote: I just ran across this one.. There’s a lot of information on history in this article.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gowenrf/malangu.htm
I finally finished reading this. This is probably the most concise accounting of the arrival of the first Africans in America and the evolution of the loss of rights of brown people in the last 400 years. Everyone should read and study this thesis for that reason alone.
The only critique I have is that I think the Indian component of the people he calls “melungion” is grossly underestimated. I’m not going to belittle any of Paul Heinegg’s work. It is excellent, but I think even he has backed off that 99% of the Angolan men married white women. I would guess it was more like 50% white women and 50% red women. The Black/Red mix was there from generation 1 in many cases.
Also I would suggest that east coast white society’s aversion to mixed bloods had as much to do with mixed-bloods refusal to deny their ndn blood as admitting to black blood. After removal, it was not cool to be ndn. The problem had been solved and polite society was stressed by seeing reminders.
Anyhow, excellent article.
but black yellow and white makes red..and has always been native. we were all tri-racials from the start..
why are native Americans the only white people or the whitest people around the equator?
race is only one generation deep… if your fathers y type is a “african” type (think breeds like in animals ) people will call you ‘african..’
if he was white type male line , they will more likely to call you white .
if he is an ‘asian’ type .. then with only 20 % of your mother father
“breed” to make up what people SEE you to be..
those two male lines do not speak for our history, or our inheritance, or our cultures , or our experiences going back thousands of years.
nut jobbers scientism with it’s big sticks backed by a Goverments with a bigger stick.. the stickers saw asians, they went cherry picken Asians types/ breeds ( they wanted like bull dogs.. they found bull dogs , it is not hard to find bull dogs when you are looking for bull dogs. you can even find mutt bull dogs easy. because the father type is 70-80% .) they wanted flat faces so they found them ! ) for Dawes and all those rolls and kicked everyone else off… and now we all only see Asians because everyone now is cherry picken bull dogs , and it is appears it doesn’t matter if that asians types are late comers or were here early… what a sickening mess. and pi$$ me off something fierce when some kituwah old man were hitting up on some asian teens from Taiwan at a powow and this Kitawah was trying to get his sons some dates. I wonder what those kids would be called ?
seems now they all want Asians and seems everyone wants real natives to be asians.. come hell or high water … they are going to get Asians!! Native American are going to be asians. 8( that scene just made me ill. I never went back to that pow wow again and never been to a powwow since.
because that asian type of male lines … that is only 1/3 of the real story.
you guys they got dna from China Lake, so do yourself a favor and find out why they called that place ‘ China Lake’
that and worse levels of stupid science and historians has done to native people is criminal. and worse the people believe it. like Now they were calling Hamiltons drawing of Shoeboots ” a European male ” and he was full blooded and all native to the bones, to his bones . and they are calling him ‘white’ on anthro sites. what are the chances we could be called anything but European unless our fathers or our mothers father is Asian y type and it don’t matter when it got here either it seems . I am sure NO one , not any of those goofballs of stupid stick will not have the last word on who is what !!
We were always tri-racials and any type of humans that was here is and was possible. I mean some tribes may have pulled this way or that way because the group had more white or asian or black male breeds/lines in it because of war or whatever.. . but they all had them all. some individuals in each group or clan would pull to a corner of the triangle.. because there is still only two dads per individual( the father and the mothers father ) ! so you can’t really have tri-racials. we are up to about 80% our fathers
“race” . but that doesn’t speak and is not their history or their culture or their inheritances, or their stories . it basically to the blind or dumb.. is only one man’s line is really we all can see.. that is about all we see in someone else . well one tiny bit of the mothers fathers race that we might just might be able to see in someone else also. but that just makes up for dominant colors, shades and tones.. so maybe maybe someone can see it !!!!!!!!! that isn’t only who they are and it doesn’t tell us anything about the mothers lines real history . it only tells us a story of two men and nothing else.
but they only saw what they wanted to see and they only put that garbage into their computers and you know the old saying about old computers .. “garbage in, garbage out ” and onto those rolls and into those censuses.. ,just don’t trust that kind of stupid…..! science by observations has failed mankind miserably. just don’t trust what you think you see or what others think they see. especially if they are carrying a big stick backed by a government with a bigger stick.
Anyway I was going to start a thread about “Goings ” I got some hard questions for some ‘Goings’
anyone want to start another thread? or bring up a Going thread that you want to talk about some kinds of ‘closet things on?
Linda;36997 wrote: With the Removal Act in 1830 it became illegal to be an Indian in the South. Those who remained had to accept being enumerated as either black or white. Unless you were wealthy and well assimilated, you could expect to be classified as Black. If you look at most of the state -recognized tribes, they were listed, until the last few decades, as Black. The Paper Genocide. Removal also coincided with the abolition of the slave trade, which placed huge pressures on submerged native groups, as many were kidnapped into slavery. Some believe that the reason the Black population in the Upper South is lighter complected than those in the Deep South is because of the high admixture of Indian blood to the group, rather than white.
I know someone who is related to Alfre Woodard, he’s also related to an Indian trader in TN in the 17th century by that name. Likely also related to Buck Woodard, who’s posted here from time to time, and now has his doctorate in Native studies. The complexions may be all over the map, but the grey matter is consistently first rate.
That was a great post and it rang so true with what I have uncovered in my research. As I have stated earlier, most of my family originated in and around the Blue Ridge. They were FPOC in diverse places along the ridges and foothills, but I center much of the history around Surry County NC where most of them seemed to have been drawn to last. As they moved back and forth from Va. to N.C. I encountered some things that I would never have discovered by traditional history accounts. One of my relatives shows up in the household with the Findleys and others show up as being enslaved by William Draper and his family. My FPOC Hill family was back and forth between Surry and Wythe, but also Patrick, Grayson, and Carroll from the early to mid 18th century. There is also a White family who they accuse of being an Indian slave kidnapper working around Henry County Va. and Rockingham County NC. I’ll have to look up the name in my files, but there were quite a few people who made a living from stealing Indian slaves, and designating them as MULATTO slaves if anyone asked. Got it…. they were the FULKERSON family
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/02/late-not-necessarily-steppe-split-of.html
” all my relatives ” wasn’t ever any kind of joke , it means something .. and now maybe folks might be sneaking up on the truth. a whole lots less demand for “asian” dna , just might be in the future of genetics hum?
what they won’t ever sneak up on is when that split really happened.
well at least now they are getting hints that our ancestors were not liars . if they say they came from the west or the east or they came from around the eye hopping on islands. they were not liars they were always Port a(u)g(ua) i going not really Portuguese but once split away from Port aU gi’s / port/ water(aqua) going people. at the event I memorialized at Serpent Mound and on the Pictish Rhyniestones .
Caphtor / Cofita-chiqui is the key to
“the heart of the Sea” –
it was pupil of the eye shape which was once the shape of the islands until the events which caused the turtles/ continents to drains of water into the void we now call the Atlantic. I finally found where the Choctaw and Chickasaw call the stories of that event as ” The Re waters” it being at least the second flood but only one man lived through it , not a family ) and all other dna of those who walked this way following “the leaning pole”/ walking stick came from that side ( around Oregon or Washington ) thus more likely to appear more asian by dna I would think.
Hello researchers,
I am new to this website and I would like to introduce myself. I was born and raised in California. So was my father. My grandmother Lestra Gray on my father’s side of the family, used to mention oral tradition of Indian blood way back in 1977 but not the name of the tribe.
She also used to mention her favorite uncle, Ulysses Sherman Gray living with 6 grandchildren in Washington, DC. She said that he mailed her the letter in 1977 with copies of family tree chart with everyone’s name. One year later, he passed away on January 7 1978. His death was published in Washington Post newspaper.
My grandmother also passed away in southern California in February or March 1985. I had no idea if Indian blood was from her mother’s or father’s side of the family. In 1990, my grandmother Lestra’s cousin Rebecca “Becky” Gray mailed a letter to me with copies of photos of our Gray relatives. Becky lived in Atlanta, Georgia at that point.
And so I noticed the photo of my grandmother Lestra’s father Lester David Gray’s mother, Rebecca Johnson Parker. She looked like an Indian or Melungeon. Her face was square with prominent cheekbones. She had 9 children. She was born in 1862 to Nancy Anderson and John Parker in Chattanooga, TN. Nancy died from a difficult birth so her baby Rebecca was raised by her aunt, Malinda Anderson for 18 years. Melinda and Nancy were both twin sisters who were listed together on online US census records for 1860 and 1850 for Walker county, northwest Georgia. Nancy was married to a McNabb who was a Republican voting member.
Rebecca was 9 when she moved with her family to a new thriving town of Attalla in Etowah county, AL. She was 18 when her father signed papers to allow her to marry William Wyatt Gray who was employed as a hotel clerk. They had 9 children. Their first born child was my paternal grandmother Lestra’s father, Lester David Gray who later engineered US Panama canal project.
In December 2011,I decided to order DNA test with 23andme company. I took the test and waited 8 weeks for the results to come back. The results show that I have American Indian ancestry at .02% and I learned that it also includes west African ancestry. Later, I learned that .02% means the mixed ancestry is from 10 great-grandparent’s generation. That was very interesting part for me.
3 years later to Aug 2015, I received a message from 23andme company. It was from a customer who ordered the test this year. The company found that the customer’s results did match with my 3 yrs old results with regards for our American Indian ancestry and west African ancestry. Her name was Rhianna Gray. I learned that she is the grandchild of my grandmother Lestra’s favorite uncle Ulysses S. Gray. I told her that I still have his letters to this day. That surprised her!
Rhianna recognized 2 of her family names Gray and Parker on my profile so she contacted me with questions. She was curious how we are related and we found out that her grandfather was my grandmother’s uncle. I asked her if she had ever been told anything about Indian blood.
Rhianna confirmed that she was also told about it. She said that her grandfather used to love to tell his grandchildren about Indian blood and that our Gray forebear married an Indian. That additional detail really helped to point my research in the right direction. She emailed the photo attachment of her grandfather’s family tree charts and I found my name there!
I left Texas earlier this month to meet Rhianna’s other cousin, Janet in Colorado who is also my cousin. She had shown me the year 1919 photo of my grandmother Lestra’s father Lester’s mother, Rebecca Parker. She looked very Indian. She may had been a Melungeon because she was born in TN. I was confused at that point because Indian blood was mentioned in our Gray line but if Rebecca was also part Indian, Indian blood in her Parker line was not mentioned. That was what really confused me.
I remember the letter that Rhianna’s grandfather wrote back in 1977. He wrote that his mother Rebecca Parker’s father, John married another woman, Melissa who was half native from Chocolocco river in AL. He
made a living working and traveling on the boats on the river.
I joined a FB group with Melungeon researchers and I followed the links to more info. I learned that Parker and Anderson are tribal surnames of many Saponi and even Nansemond families in northeast NC and southeast VA. I found that whole thing really interesting. Anyway, I hope that I can get the help that I need to dig deeper and investigate it! If you have questions, let me know! Thank you so much for reading this!
Wendy Cunningham
Gray-Parker-Anderson Researcher
Welcome Wendy, Billahuk (thank you) for joining and sharing your story!
From your profile I notice you mentioned San Diego, a place I lived for 12 years. I’m wondering if you know Rose Davis there, who runs the newspaper Indian Voices. She is involved in Black Indian issues in particular.
in my experience 23andMe is not one of the better sources for determining ancestry (admixture). They are more focused on health results. I would encourage you to download your sample from 23andMe and upload it to GedMatch. They have what many say are more accurate admixture calculators like MDLP and Eurogenes. GedMatch also is more likely to connect you with cousins who have detailed genealogy online.
One thing I’ve noticed in terms of oral history. It seems that it is passed more on female lines than male ones. For example my g-grandfather Dora MCS Smith spoke of his mother’s maternal grand-mother being a full-blood. One of his daughters, had a daughter, who had my mother. That is the line the oral history followed. However, on my grandfather’s mothers side I’ve found more cousins here on SaponiTown, even though was no oral history on this side.
Hello Marc,
No, I was not famaliar with Rose Davis. I think that is wonderful to check out Indian Voices newspaper.
No, I do not reside in San Diego. My maternal uncle and wife used to live there but retired to San Juan Island off the coast of Washington. I reside in Medford, Oregon. I have 3 female Gray cousins still living in San Diego. They are Florence Gray, Paula Gray, and Sarah Gray. Sarah is university professor in San Diego and she teaches environment science courses.
Sarah’s father is Dr. William (Uncle “Bill”) Gray who is 84 yrs old and lives with his older daughter, Janet. He is still working as university professor in Ft Collins, Colorado. He teaches the study of hurricanes. He is very famous for being the inventor of accurate way of predicting hurricanes and was on tv news several times. You can google him on online Wikipedia website. He’s very well known in Colorado.
Uncle Bill decided to order DNA test with 23andme company 3 weeks ago after he heard about his niece Rhianna Gray’s DNA results that were matched with my results last August. Rhianna is paralegal assistant and animal intuitive who lives in Boulder, Colorado.
I learned from Rhianna’s DNA profile that our Indian ancestry is from the ancient Yatuk people that originated from the region around Baikal Lena Lake in Siberia before they left for Alaska during the last ice page. I know that was the traditional lore of Lenni Lenape-Delaware Nation (known as the Grandfathers confederacy of Algonquin language based sister tribes.
I noticed my error in my previous post. I meant that my 2nd great grandmother Rebecca Parker’s mother Nancy’s twin sister, Malinda had married a McNabb. Very sorry for my typo error (for confusing Malinda with Nancy). So I hope to go back and edit it and correct that error.
I had never tried downloading my 23andme sample info in order to upload it to GEDmatch website from my 23andme profile. But I will do that today when I get a chance. I had never tried doing that. This is new to me. I know I am new to this whole thing.
Thanks for sharing your experience about the oral tradition thing. That is really ironic!
Wendy
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Grayparkeranderson;38506 wrote: Hello researchers,
I am new to this website and I would like to introduce myself. I was born and raised in California. So was my father. My grandmother Lestra Gray on my father’s side of the family, used to mention oral tradition of Indian blood way back in 1977 but not the name of the tribe.
She also used to mention her favorite uncle, Ulysses Sherman Gray living with 6 grandchildren in Washington, DC. She said that he mailed her the letter in 1977 with copies of family tree chart with everyone’s name. One year later, he passed away on January 7 1978. His death was published in Washington Post newspaper.
My grandmother also passed away in southern California in February or March 1985. I had no idea if Indian blood was from her mother’s or father’s side of the family. In 1990, my grandmother Lestra’s cousin Rebecca “Becky” Gray mailed a letter to me with copies of photos of our Gray relatives. Becky lived in Atlanta, Georgia at that point.
And so I noticed the photo of my grandmother Lestra’s father Lester David Gray’s mother, Rebecca Johnson Parker. She looked like an Indian or Melungeon. Her face was square with prominent cheekbones. She had 9 children. She was born in 1862 to Nancy Anderson and John Parker in Chattanooga, TN. Nancy died from a difficult birth so her baby Rebecca was raised by her aunt, Malinda Anderson for 18 years. Melinda and Nancy were both twin sisters who were listed together on online US census records for 1860 and 1850 for Walker county, northwest Georgia. Nancy was married to a McNabb who was a Republican voting member.
Rebecca was 9 when she moved with her family to a new thriving town of Attalla in Etowah county, AL. She was 18 when her father signed papers to allow her to marry William Wyatt Gray who was employed as a hotel clerk. They had 9 children. Their first born child was my paternal grandmother Lestra’s father, Lester David Gray who later engineered US Panama canal project.
In December 2011,I decided to order DNA test with 23andme company. I took the test and waited 8 weeks for the results to come back. The results show that I have American Indian ancestry at .02% and I learned that it also includes west African ancestry. Later, I learned that .02% means the mixed ancestry is from 10 great-grandparent’s generation. That was very interesting part for me.
3 years later to Aug 2015, I received a message from 23andme company. It was from a customer who ordered the test this year. The company found that the customer’s results did match with my 3 yrs old results with regards for our American Indian ancestry and west African ancestry. Her name was Rhianna Gray. I learned that she is the grandchild of my grandmother Lestra’s favorite uncle Ulysses S. Gray. I told her that I still have his letters to this day. That surprised her!
Rhianna recognized 2 of her family names Gray and Parker on my profile so she contacted me with questions. She was curious how we are related and we found out that her grandfather was my grandmother’s uncle. I asked her if she had ever been told anything about Indian blood.
Rhianna confirmed that she was also told about it. She said that her grandfather used to love to tell his grandchildren about Indian blood and that our Gray forebear married an Indian. That additional detail really helped to point my research in the right direction. She emailed the photo attachment of her grandfather’s family tree charts and I found my name there!
I left Texas earlier this month to meet Rhianna’s other cousin, Janet in Colorado who is also my cousin. She had shown me the year 1919 photo of my grandmother Lestra’s father Lester’s mother, Rebecca Parker. She looked very Indian. She may had been a Melungeon because she was born in TN. I was confused at that point because Indian blood was mentioned in our Gray line but if Rebecca was also part Indian, Indian blood in her Parker line was not mentioned. That was what really confused me.
I remember the letter that Rhianna’s grandfather wrote back in 1977. He wrote that his mother Rebecca Parker’s father, John married another woman, Melissa who was half native from Chocolocco river in AL. He
made a living working and traveling on the boats on the river.
I joined a FB group with Melungeon researchers and I followed the links to more info. I learned that Parker and Anderson are tribal surnames of many Saponi and even Nansemond families in northeast NC and southeast VA. I found that whole thing really interesting. Anyway, I hope that I can get the help that I need to dig deeper and investigate it! If you have questions, let me know! Thank you so much for reading this!
Wendy Cunningham
Gray-Parker-Anderson Researcher
Welcome Wendy! I also have Parkers and McNabbs on my lines. No NA connections verified but always like to see others who share my surnames regardless. Good luck!
Hello there!
I am very surprised to get your message. Yes, I also have Parker and McNabb lines in my family tree. My 2nd great grandmother Rebecca May Parker’s mother Nancy Anderson and her sister Malinda were twin sisters.
Malinda married John McNabb (I think his first name was John but I will look at my paternal grandmother’s uncle’s year 1977 letter with family history notes). Malinda and her husband McNabb had 3 boys (first the twin boys and then their one younger brother). I can’t believe that you contacted me here. Wow!
I am so surprised to hear from you. You have to be a distant cousin. I do have year 1919 photo of Malinda A. McNabb’s niece, Rebecca May Parker. She looked very Indian. Let me know if you want to see it.
My DNA test results show that my paternal grandmother Lestra Gray’s oral tradition of native blood was correct.
Have you ever been told about native blood in your family. I am curious about you. What is your name? Where do you live now? I was born and raised in Los Angeles. My grandmother was from AL. I can be reached by email:
wmcunn92@gmail.com and I hope to learn more about your research. Hope to hear back from you.
Wendy
Medford, southern Oregon
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seeker;38644 wrote: Welcome Wendy! I also have Parkers and McNabbs on my lines. No NA connections verified but always like to see others who share my surnames regardless. Good luck!
So here is my new kit number: M804878 and I did not realize that 23andme actually focus on health. Can you recommend another company that I can test with for more accurate info? Let me know.
Wendy
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MarcSnelling;38511 wrote: Welcome Wendy, Billahuk (thank you) for joining and sharing your story!
From your profile I notice you mentioned San Diego, a place I lived for 12 years. I’m wondering if you know Rose Davis there, who runs the newspaper Indian Voices. She is involved in Black Indian issues in particular.
in my experience 23andMe is not one of the better sources for determining ancestry (admixture). They are more focused on health results. I would encourage you to download your sample from 23andMe and upload it to GedMatch. They have what many say are more accurate admixture calculators like MDLP and Eurogenes. GedMatch also is more likely to connect you with cousins who have detailed genealogy online.
One thing I’ve noticed in terms of oral history. It seems that it is passed more on female lines than male ones. For example my g-grandfather Dora MCS Smith spoke of his mother’s maternal grand-mother being a full-blood. One of his daughters, had a daughter, who had my mother. That is the line the oral history followed. However, on my grandfather’s mothers side I’ve found more cousins here on SaponiTown, even though was no oral history on this side.
Wendy,
I would not bother testing with another company unless you have a specific need. For example, the power of Ancestry is the number of people who tested and their family trees (if they have them. More and more do not.) that you can match there on Ancestry. FamilytreeDNA and 23andMe have tools to match segments of the DNA with different people, but you can do that with a free downloadable program called Genome Mate Pro if you wish with your current 23andMe DNA sample.
Gedmatch allows you to match your DNA with members from the 3 major companies, and if you tested from the other companies and uploaded to Gedmatch, the results would be pretty much the same. I guess in testing with another company, you catch a wider swath of people, but serious researchers usually upload to Gedmatch anyway.
For me, though, were I to recommend another company to you, it would be Ancestry, although to use the strength of the test there, you should also maintain a tree there. I tested with all 3 companies, but 23andMe was for health reasons. Only one cousin responded to my request for sharing information there. FTDNA provided limited connections, while Ancestry has gained me connections with the most cousins.
As for ethnicity, Mark is correct. Gedmatch is your best tool. The Native American Facebook page recommends these tests: Dodecad World9, Eurogenes K13, MDLP World-22, MDLP K23b, Eurogenes K36. Click on Admixture in Gedmatch to access these tests.
Cindy
Out of curiosity, I ran all 3 of my DNA results, Ancestry, 23andMe, and FTDNA, through the Gedmatch. Using the Ethnicity tests recommended by the Native American Facebook page, I got these results:
Admixture Test 23&Me FTDNA Ancestry
Dodecad World9 1.87 1.65 1.66
Eurogenes K13 2.04 2.07 2.00
EurogenesK36 0 0 0
MDLP World 22 2.12 1.7 1.61
MDLPK23b 7.05 6.35 6.31
Harrapaworld 1.45 1.09 .96
These are in percentages. The one that matches my genealogy most closely is MDLPK23b. I have 2+ lines of NA coming through Mom’s family. Some of the researchers state that due to reluctance on the part of tribes to test, they lack reliability. I tallied all Asian lines that are thought to have migrated to N. American, i.e. Oceanian.
As you can see, not a huge difference among the 3 kits, only among the selection of test results. 23andMe is supposed to be the most sensitive to NA markers.
Cindy
Hello Cindy,
Thank you for sharing your experience with Gedmatch. I have learned a lot here and there from different people including you. Thank you for explaining things. I noticed the lists of family names for your grandparent. I have a FB friend who is mixed blood Native American and her maternal grandmother’s last name was Mounts.
I wonder if she is related to you. She descends from different tribes. Maybe I can put you in touch with her. She is on my FB list. Her name is Shannon Simpson Perez. Here is the link to her FB page: https://www.facebook.com/shannon.simpson.927 You can find me under my username “Wendy Cu” with Seattle that is listed as my hometown.
Let me know if you are interested.
Wendy
==============================================
techteach;38648 wrote: Out of curiosity, I ran all 3 of my DNA results, Ancestry, 23andMe, and FTDNA, through the Gedmatch. Using the Ethnicity tests recommended by the Native American Facebook page, I got these results:
Admixture Test 23&Me FTDNA Ancestry
Dodecad World9 1.87 1.65 1.66
Eurogenes K13 2.04 2.07 2.00
EurogenesK36 0 0 0
MDLP World 22 2.12 1.7 1.61
MDLPK23b 7.05 6.35 6.31
Harrapaworld 1.45 1.09 .96
These are in percentages. The one that matches my genealogy most closely is MDLPK23b. I have 2+ lines of NA coming through Mom’s family. Some of the researchers state that due to reluctance on the part of tribes to test, they lack reliability. I tallied all Asian lines that are thought to have migrated to N. American, i.e. Oceanian.
As you can see, not a huge difference among the 3 kits, only among the selection of test results. 23andMe is supposed to be the most sensitive to NA markers.
Cindy
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