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Hello Linda,yes the said “shirt” is in the Oxford Museum where all of the earliest material from your area is, it isn’t apart of the John Tradescant collections but it is from the same era. If you’d like I can find out more about the item(s) there and let you know, David Bushnell did some articles on the collections over there in American Anthropologist. He mentioned several items that are no longer there, but were apart of the original collection. If you can have your friend do some photo’s of these things for this site that would be truley amazing, one article is a “double flap” penant bag” it has 2 flaps on both ends made in the shape of arrow heads,the arrow heads are made of shell beads. There’s much to see and discuss,something that we should be looking at. I think that your right about the dress in the south for this topic especially in summer, but in the cooler times of the year and for other purposes they would have had both cloth and hide clothing not to mention the feather mantels etc. I’m quite sure of the moccasin patterns though, I have a photo of my grandmothers sister with her daughter and this young girl during the 1930’s was wearing her baby moccasins of a center seam pattern, on this ladies tunic is also some very interesting designs that I hope to share with this group. Regarding the recognition issue I can tell you that I really don’t want much part of that, but what I would like to see is a Blackfoot home coming one day, that would include several topics that we discuss here. Well this is it! I will get back to you about the other items etc so, anyway best to all ,Tom.
I did a search on Google for the museum and got this http://units.ox.ac.uk/departments/prm/COLLECTIONS/Intro_to_Collections2.html#anchor1422423
must be the place. Could you just get those references together so they’ll know what we’re talking about? Then we’ll just e-mail them. Maybe we can talk them into putting up a page on their site with photographs of these items and we’ll cross-link to them. Great work!
I’d love to see those photos of the little girl with the mocassins, and that lady’s tunic. If we can rule out that the pattern on it belongs to one of the tribes your family hung out with along the way, then I think it would be perfectly reasonable to assert that it’s ours. This is exciting. The arrowhead motif is interesting. Did you know that Piedmont Siouan men tatooed three arrows onto their left shoulders in varying configurations to signify what band they were with?
There’s what I guess must be what you’d call a center seam moccasin pattern on a re-enactor’s list I’m on. I used it to make some for my husband and myself. I’ll dig up the link if you’re interested. It’s definitely not a European style pattern. It’s based off of measurements taken with a string, not a measuring tape.
As for the homecoming, I’m sure it will be forthcoming. Nothing can beat the recognition of cousins of one another.
HELLO..Cousin! one of the best publications that I’ve seen(in part) on the subject is “Tradescant Rarities” by Arthur MacGregor,from Clarendon Press,Oxford 1983. I think that we should get a hold of it, I have only seen bad xeroxs of it and do not know if it’s in/on this continent or not. Please Linda I’d like to know more about this tattoo of the 3 arrows,can you tell me more? “3” figures in my family like you would not believe! The link to the center seam moccasins sounds very interesting and yes I would like to see it. I’ve looked closely at the patterns on my Aunts “tunic” and I’m pretty sure that it is not from any of the groups that our family ever “hung” with. The patterns resemble the cross that’s on the rattle snake shell gorgets! I know that our family was around several groups but none with these patterns. I don’t know if the patterns are embroidered or if they are beaded but I do know that she did do embroidery. Perhaps we need to look at the photos very closely, like blowing them up etc. More later as always Tom.
OOh, that “Hello Cousin” sure had a warm and fuzzy feeling to it! Same back at ya!
I don’t know any more about the three arrows. There is an illustration in Swanton’s book on Southeastern Indians. (I copied the stuff on the Saponi out and intend to type it up.) Anyway, the illustration shows a variety of arrow configurations, but it doesn’t specify what’s what. It seems like that data is somewhere, as they’re numbered, but it wasn’t there.
What’s been happening is that various bands have been setting their own configurations. The Monacans have one that’s been around for awhile. The Occaneechi Band of the Saponi have theirs. We designed one last summer for us “unincorporated” Saponi. Ours point to the left, are staggered with the top arrow being left-most.
We’ll have to get ahold of that book. Have you checked Amazon yet? It’s surprising how much they can have. I’ll be waiting to see those designs from your aunt’s tunic. I’ve got a paint program that will be useful to help blow up and isolate the design.
Got to run. TTYL.
[This message has been edited by Linda (edited 12-29-2001).]
Hello, yes that “cousin” was meant to have a warm fuzzty feeling to it! I will be putting some negatives in to get copies for you and I will be calling my Aunt who owns the pic. to see if she can have a large lazer copy done for us, the photo is from about the 1930’s so is back there a ways.I will try and track down some more info. on the Tradescant collection etc. I have seen a photo of the “shirt” in a small book called “A symposium on Crow Indian Art”. Also I will try and track down the unpublished info. from Swantons papers perhaps he actually recorded something that we can use. Also I will send to you a copy of the bag with 4 arrowheads on it as well .
Hey all.
a few points i wanted to bring into this discussion.
the ofo and biloxi are sioun speakers, however they are unrelated to saponi interests.
they more closely resemble their muskogee neighbors in material culture and lifeways.
Cheyenne speak Algonquian dialect but are unrelated to the algonqiuan speaking pennobscot in maine. Make sense? Big language family. small cultural area.
“why is everthing referred to as saponi that is blackfoot here ” tom asks.
Good question tom. Other than the sissipaha connection to Saponi, we dont know.
there is good oral tradition to relate blackfoot labels to triracial indian groups in VA/NC
however, as a tribal entity of “blackfoot” it seems as prevelant as “cherokee”. What do all the other Saponi townships refer to themselves as? are the only folks missing the town of Sissipaha? more “blackfoots” than available saponis. need more indian groups.
Tuckahoe indians – good stuff. another “blackfoot” label of oral tradition.
ive got written documents on one family of “tuckahoe” indian. this bears more insight.
dont lose sight of tuckohoe in search of blackfoot – its another “marker” for triracials in VA/NC indian country. Blackfoot Cherokees sounds to be right out of Virginia. Corruption of original descent confused by time and replaced with familiar material.
Tuckahoes out there? respond! Virginia Algonquian by the way.
Material culture for sioun of virginia/north carolina – lots of scattered goodies.
the oxford biz is good – try ashmolean museum , thats where the material tom refers to is housed.
“the Virginia purse” “powhatans mantle” “Virginia Bow 1660” etc.
Pequots also have originial of Va indian man (engraving) dissimiliar to white’s or debry’s look – could be VA sioun or Iroquioan.
centerseam mocks for sure. check out “aged man in winter” from Debry. clear center seam.
Smith and strachey also account for clothing styles as such. Checkout Rountree on Virginia indians material culture. Very simialar in construction at that time.
Va. Dept. of historical resources has good material on pottery / carving/ decorative works. even one preserved garter from Fort Christianna region. contact me on field trip – know the staff well – easy access to study collection. lots more out there.
Saura town woman from Nat’l Geo – good work there. however, reconstruction beadwork done by a western craftsman from Wyoming. I have dress patterns and inventory list from curator – also a bronze statue on display outside of NC history museum with full outfit and facial reconstruction of this NC sioun woman.
alot of resources not on web yet? most of mine are in print / photo / slide format.
anyone seen the reconstruction work at old explorer park near roanoke va or monacan work at natural bridge?
later
Hau Kola, first let me say (igwasisdi) that when I refered to the Biloxi and Ofo that it was in direct reference to thier language and (by using several methods) we could draw on thier language to compare to an established premise and therefore come to a conclusion or atleast a better understanding of what we could be missing, thusly giving us a direction to move towards!As for the material culture of the Biloxi and Ofos historic communities little is known, however they both did embrace the culture that surrounded them, atleast that’s what the X-perts have assumed. Please clarify your statements re labels to “triracial indian groups” prior to your comments on the Tuckahoe. As for the term tuckahoe I’ve never heard that term in my family ever! It sounds as though your eluding to the premise that tri-racials are less than biracial communities, let me say that black or white still is not red, but does that really matter? No! Blackfoot-Cherokees is not right out of Virginia since my Family is Canadian and they have not been in Va. for a very long time if ever! The one issue here that needs to be addressed is the garter, these “garters ” are not always garters, they have many uses, and should be clearly identfied as that if that was what it is.As for the rest of your material it sounds very interesting and I hope that you will keep sharing and I hope that one day I hope to shake your hand. Best to all ,Tom.
Could you elaborate a bit more on some of these references:
Smith and strachey also account for clothing styles as such. Checkout Rountree on Virginia indians material culture. Very simialar in construction at that time.
Va. Dept. of historical resources has good material on pottery / carving/ decorative works. even one preserved garter from Fort Christianna region. contact me on field trip – know the staff well – easy access to study collection.
Smith? Strachey? Rountree? Do you have full names and titles?
Where is this VA dept of historical resources?
Hau tom
i have not read your whole line of comments, but assume you know your stuff!
clarity on triracials –
the southeast is a special region, unlike other areas of the continent. The idea of being “less than” is no where in my mind. I claim triracial and biracial descent. many groups from the south are 500 years into intermarriage – similiar to the Metis on your side of the border. please keep in mind that many of these groups identify themselves as indian, even with triracial backgrounds. Not less as a people – just more history of many cultures colliding.
Check out Anthony J. Paredes on southeastern indians of the 20th century, or the last chapter of Charles Hudson’s The Southeastern Indians.
On Cherokee / Blackfoot – no idea if your not from here. maybe a long history of migration (several hundred years?) i thought you had traced yourself back to this neck of the woods.
tuckahoe is interesting though. that is one of many powhatan algonquian “loan words” in the english language. the root is proto algonqian /*takw-/ ‘pound fine, bray, beat, to a powder’ identical in cree, ojibway, shawnee, menominee, delware, and powhatan algonquian dialects. This is homophonous with and perhaps related by semantic extension to the PA (proto algonquian) root /*takw-/ “among or between 2 particulars (pound?), together’
following this is the transitive PA /*-ah-/ ‘by instrument or tool, noun finallized PEA (proto eastern Algonquian) /*ahkw-/ ‘taproot, bole, large root, and trunk’. Many variations beyond this on bread, pounding, roots etc. Check out Frank T.
Siebert, Jr. on Algonquian architypes.
The prescence of arrow arrum from florida texas northward to maine and new york and southern ontario makes this a widespread usage word – and that roots were used for meal long before introduction of maize from the south.
however, since english observers first encountered it in va, powhatan takes credit for the loan in english. hence a special significance to “Tuckahoe” indians in this region. im excited about this term because it is less used than other cultural markers for indian descents.
Ofo and Biloxi are definately our sioun people from the south – along with other major dialects of Catawba, Quapaw, tutelo, and woccon.
However, according the linguistic work done by Horatio Hale (1870)(1883), the Rev. Joseph Anderson (1872), Leo Frachtenburg (1907)(1913), and Edward Sapir (1911)(1913) the closest Sioun to Tutelo (saponi dialect) is Dakota and maybe hidatsa. In a macro view of migration, this lends to the idea of a very early prehistory in the ohio valley region. ( side note: cahokia is thought to have been Dakota linguistically) from there, migration carried the proto group out at different points into different directions.
On garters –
deffinately garters, portion preserved is about 2 inches in width, maybe 8 inches lon. geometric x’s or diamonds in a fingerweave, i believe. ill say garter do to its orientation in situ, however i guess the bandolier is not out of the question. this period along the nottoway and meherrin rivers shows alot of european trade – however shot and firarms were not at the site same circa. Hence, no bandoliers for powder at that time at that site. Garters were documented in use, as was other english broadcloth. Preservation is poor for botanicals here – this piece was saved because of placement near copper.
Linda –
lots of references ill make time next to connect you with authors and publications. you really need to know these folks because they wrote or have written the most on Virginia / carolina earlier years of colonization and susequent indian history / culture / maps.
mostly about Algonquian – but similiar in geography and cultural material. Siouns mentioned as are iroquois of area. more later.
Thank you for the responce Itconani, first let me say I do read all of th responces and I hope that you will also in the future! Yes I have traced our family back to the old Blackfoot homeland but I can’t say that they were ever in Va. if I’m ignorant of the facts please forgive me. My G.Grandmothers father was born in Tn and may have left (with his folks) during some later removal but was born in 1839, died in 1916, his daughter came to Canada and her daughter my Grandmother had 11 kids prior to the baby boom, so we do know who we are! Where in the grave? was this “garter found”? I can tell you that I have seen what can be called a garter worn as a choker style necklace and many of these pieces were used in prisoner ropes and aswell on tump lines so I’d like to see more about this piece. Bandoliers would indicate that it was from above the waste below the neck. As for the patterns coming from a “finger-woven” article it would have to be woven with reversals in it to create x paterns, if it was twinned then it would be easier to do, there are several more types of weaving done off loom. If I could see a good image of it I could define the technique and maybe the use. I believe that we will never know how many types of weaving methods were once here but this should be interesting. your approach to the liguistic material sounds very with it, I have a friend in Ga. that you should meet one day. He too has some interest in the Tuckahoe, it’s very intresting that you bring the translation to the forum. I can tell you that I don’t believe that our people were Mongolian rejects,and that many people came from S. America, and so did many basket traditions including the tradition of river cane,( the “shaker style” hexagon weave is a native American method prior to contact!) but people “gafaw” at this theory, the use of arrow arrum sounds like it may support my thinking certainly folks had this basket tradition prior to the use of maize. Any way this is it! thank you very much for sharing Itconani, and I would like to meet you, Tom.
tom –
you bet! lots of info on the migration patterns beginning to emerge. ideas include consistant waves from north, as well as influx from the south. Check out video from Nova? or Na’tl Geo? on Kenewick man. good stuff there.
the garter – we would have to get photo from study collection. i dont think its ever been photographed or studied much. Additionally its been 8ish years since ive seen it personally. if a trip develops ill make it a point. have you spent much time looking at house construction matt weaving? cornhusks? i have some good articles on iroquois husk weaving for shoes (inserts for cold weather). tough to do but very beautiful. how about feather weaving in garments?
where in tennessee are your people from?
best
Itconani, when you get a chance to read this whole long thread, you’ll see that Vance is the one with the Tuckahoe reference.
There are good opportunities looming for re-enactment and I’d love to see some of us ready for it. There’s a thread on here somewhere that I posted about the little “skirts” that our women wove. White’s drawings of women in these skirts resemble what William Byrd described in his history of the line. (I imagine one day when I’ve walked on and get a chance to chat with some of the ladies who were at Fort Christanna they’ll remember old Will as that annoying fop who kept trying to peek up their skirts.) Apparently dogbane was used.
Re-creating a feather mantle would be stunning, but very time-consuming, even with modern materials. To be pristine and use the historic materials would be an awesome undertaking.
A BIG Hello! yes I have seen some on house construction and have done a little but not a great deal! I have heard of kenniwick man and several others, I think that the big waters around us have only served to transport people much easier instead of isolating us. Mat weaving is something that I have done some research on and I can tell you that I have woven metis sashes for dance groups, yes that means a sash for each dancer! I have worked with many types of raw materials including nettle, dog bane , corn husk, various types of bark and animal tissues, skins, bird skins, feathers quills,tree roots, grasses and on and on not to mention palmetto, river cane and a stunning inner bark of the southern poplar trees,which Rumplstlintskin would have killed for! If you’d like to work on recreating a feather garment let me know, I’d be “there” will bells on!. There is some feather wrapped cords from Arkansas that must have been beautiful when they were new!and the methods used greatly resemble quill work! As you can see this has been a good part of my life, for most of it!I have made quality replicas for museums here in Alberta and have some nice pieces in the homes of many people.Time consuming? not when its a labour of love! My family was in White county for around 30 years as far as I can tell from the few records that I can find but I’d say that they may have been there much longer. Can you tell me where and who I’d contact about the garter from Fort Christanna? My e-mail is edstp62@hotmail.com perhaps I can have one done some time soon and post pics of the replica here on this site,can you help us out? Best to All,Tom.
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