- This topic has 5 voices and 66 replies.
-
Posts
-
Katfish;37327 wrote: That’s interesting, this is also from myths of the Cherokee..
P-394 The war medicine
There was another great Cherokee named Da’si’giya’gl or shoe-boots, as the whites called him, who lived on Hightower creek,in Georgia. He was so strong that it was said he could throw a corn mortar over a house, and with his magic power clear a river at one jump. His war medicine was an uktena scale and a very large turtle shell witch he got from the Shawano. In the Creek war he put this scale into water and bathed his body with the water, and also burned a piece of the turtle shell and drew a black line around his men with the coal, and he was never wounded and never had a man killed.
do you guys want to see a picture of him?
the other unnamed are Gov. Henry Hamilton’s relation’s /relations also.. the hair lip is a relation of Shoeboots and the white guy is in law or adopted brother maybe…… from Hamilton’s own pictures. ( I will have to find the oasis links later if you guys want to see all the pictures he drew )
( Shoeboot’s picture is below)
if you look you close you will notice he has the same clothes and styles as his grandpa
http://chickamaugacherokee.org/ChiefOconostota/
// this is his moms father )now if the walkers are from Shoeboots first wife then I trace to Ollie like 4 or 5 times that I know of.. the reason I did my mtdna is that I my great grandma said I am supposed to trace directly Ollie sister. Ollie who is Shoeboots mom so he is Paint clan too . Ollie’s sister who married
” old bark” and became the Barker cherokee line. I did Mtdna just wanted to confirm that direct clan connection to Ollie but no one knows for sure they are directly related to her or her sister . so it has been a crazy ride. all Logan’s family was murdered they would have been the same line too , but they all died .. Logan was Ollie brother and his half siblings were murdered except maybe one child if male or female is , just soooooooo lost…
the only confirmation now if if they ever reveal Lord Pakal’s mtdna.
because she should be the same line too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hamilton_(governor)
http://oasis.lib.harvard.edu/oasis/deliver/~hou00125
http://www.frontiervisionsofamerica.com/gallery_egouishawey.html
maybe it is during this war mentioned there when Hamilton gives Shoeboots his fancy red boots, a pair for him and Dragging Canoe.
Marc how close was this this story below to your family…. the one hit 11 times is probably Shoeboots , I thought it was St clairs war he is hit a few times, maybe both .. he never died though. maybe your family was there for some of these wars , that is where Shoeboots really get famous is in wars. and wars was not very interesting to me when I was little…:P
Battle of Island Flats[edit]
Finding Fort Lee on the Nolichucky deserted, the Cherokee force from the Overhill Towns burned it to the ground, then divided into three columns.
Dragging Canoe’s force advanced up the Great Indian Warpath and had a small skirmish with a body of militia numbering twenty who quickly withdrew. Pursuing them and intending to take Fort Lee at Long-Island-on-the-Holston, his force advanced toward the island. However, on 20 July, it encountered a larger force of militia six miles from their target, about half the size of his own but desperate, in a stronger position than the small group before.
During the “Battle of Island Flats” which followed, Dragging Canoe himself was wounded in his hip by a musket ball and his brother Little Owl (Uku-usdi) incredibly survived after being hit eleven times. His force then withdrew, raiding isolated cabins on the way and returned to the Overhill area with plunder and scalps, after raiding further north into southwestern Virginia.
Marc I just thought in case your family knew him or something maybe how they used that name … I just thought you might want to see this in case.
Great links!
I have Chief “Little Carpenter” Attakullakulla and Ni onne Ollie as my 8th great grandparents twice via Aggie “Little Owl”Attakullakulla’s granddaughters Winnie (Roberts) Stanley and Mary Polly (Roberts) Mullins.
Katfish;37330 wrote: Great links!
I have Chief “Little Carpenter” Attakullakulla and Ni onne Ollie as my 8th great grandparents twice via Aggie “Little Owl”Attakullakulla’s granddaughters Winnie (Roberts) Stanley and Mary Polly (Roberts) Mullins.
Mullins,Adkins, Cox, Maggard, Bolling/Bowling, Beverly, Baker, Stanley, Short, Gibson, Sexton, Freeman, Williams, Burton, Boone, Terrell, Reeves, Daniel, Lyons, Shepherd, Lewis, Fields, Harrison, Hoyter, Roberson, Robert, Damron, Turner, Ritchie, Richardson, Carico, Edwards, Tuten, Keel, Bunch, Parker, Potter, Cochran, Wells
wow Katfish actually you have a bunch of names that might be related..
Cochran ( through a male child of Shoeboots sisters daughter ) (Maggard? / Haggard? maybe..) Baker and or Field definitely and Terrel , Shepherd . Adkins , Turner for sure ! maybe Lewis and or Foreman or both ( some kinds of fighters ) … I probably found the Foreman on my hubby’s line and it is Mary boots Daughter of John Boots and full blooded cherokee woman.. Mary married a Foreman ( David)maybe…( having old moments… )
are some of these others the names that trace to your Roberts daughters? because these are names I am pretty sure grandma said in some conversations but not sure what the subject was. mostly she had to be talking about relations right? but maybe not .
names that kind of sound like these. others look interesting but not sure which line they go up on her lineage either. how were these names related to her.. she had a few native lines or mostly native lines.. all different tribes.
so Katfish can you get some of your ladies in that Roberts line to do their dna …. the one called little owl makes me think it is Shoeboots first wife’s line Mary polly( polly parrot ) Hamilton ?? . she was creek / shawnee or maybe white . what ages do you have on those Roberts daughters ? I think that raven and Mary Barnard might be Shoeboots or one of his brothers story.. because I am sure the name Barnards come into the family story someplace. but connected to what siblings I don’t know for sure.
Shoeboots first daughters would be born in the 1770’s to no later than around 1794.
and( ? Annie maybe ) who married a John Boggs would for sure be that line.
maybe mtdna could help out if we can get the right people tested..
see one of my big questions has been if Lady Cofitachiqui was up Ollie’s line or up Dolly’s line? Dolly was born in south Carolina too.. and I know for sure her direct line was indian and maybe tuscarora and for sure Siouan.
I don’t remember for sure but I always assumed it was Ollie line who was from that lady with the pearls.. and that is why Ollie’s mom got stolen by the Conostoga .
when their wise woman died maybe they wanted another one in the same line ..
but maybe ” lady” was in dolly’s line . I don’t remember for sure.
that is why I did mtdna was to try and sort this stuff out.
Nannanae;37329 wrote: Marc how close was this this story below to your family…. the one hit 11 times is probably Shoeboots , I thought it was St clairs war he is hit a few times, maybe both .. he never died though. maybe your family was there for some of these wars , that is where Shoeboots really get famous is in wars. and wars was not very interesting to me when I was little…:P
Well I don’t actually have any stories of Chief Shoeboots himself in my family. What I know from comparing the DNA of several family members and the cousin who has this ancestor is that it is somewhere on my line that has the strongest ‘Blackfoot’ oral history in my family. There are several other lines that I have since traced back to Saponi and Catawba roots, but this particular line remains a mystery past the oral history.
I was able to get in touch with the cousin who compiled this genealogy and she is not aware of any Cherokee or Blackfoot heritage on this line.. although it cannot be ruled out either. He used the nickname Shoeboots because there were several other people named James Lea in the vicinity.
I can’t quite put my finger on what the association is here, but I keep seeing the same surnames. James Shoeboots Lea married a woman who was the daughter of a Rucker-Tinsley marriage. I have seen Tinsley come up before in the genealogy of other DNA cousins of mine- including a specifc Cargile -Tinsley marriage mentioned in this thread Chiles, Tinsley, Allen. I’ve also seen Rucker and Tinsley in this thread Doublehad stole Edward Teal’s slave? White, Allen and Lewis are other associated names that come up multiple times in this line.
MarcSnelling;37334 wrote: Well I don’t actually have any stories of Chief Shoeboots himself in my family. What I know from comparing the DNA of several family members and the cousin who has this ancestor is that it is somewhere on my line that has the strongest ‘Blackfoot’ oral history in my family. There are several other lines that I have since traced back to Saponi and Catawba roots, but this particular line remains a mystery past the oral history.
I was able to get in touch with the cousin who compiled this genealogy and she is not aware of any Cherokee or Blackfoot heritage on this line.. although it cannot be ruled out either. He used the nickname Shoeboots because there were several other people named James Lea in the vicinity.
I can’t quite put my finger on what the association is here, but I keep seeing the same surnames. James Shoeboots Lea married a woman who was the daughter of a Rucker-Tinsley marriage. I have seen Tinsley come up before in the genealogy of other DNA cousins of mine- including a specifc Cargile -Tinsley marriage mentioned in this thread Chiles, Tinsley, Allen. I’ve also seen Rucker and Tinsley in this thread Doublehad stole Edward Teal’s slave? White, Allen and Lewis are other associated names that come up multiple times in this line.
well good luck marc but can I just say that dna companies really don’t know how dna combines and or how it get passed down.. now they think they know.. but they don’t . sure they know what it looks like in a test tube and in theory..
but not in reality.
so wow you have your work cut out for you.. I at least had some clues when I was young of what I was looking for.. I can’t image trying to find connections the ways others are having to do it. ….. but anyway I do like that name Allen also. but I haven’t got a clue where the names I think I remember great grandma talking about connect to her lines..
I only know if they seem kind of close to her lines or not . if I find anything anything that might be interesting , I’ll let you know.
Nannanae;37331 wrote: Mullins,Adkins, Cox, Maggard, Bolling/Bowling, Beverly, Baker, Stanley, Short, Gibson, Sexton, Freeman, Williams, Burton, Boone, Terrell, Reeves, Daniel, Lyons, Shepherd, Lewis, Fields, Harrison, Hoyter, Roberson, Robert, Damron, Turner, Ritchie, Richardson, Carico, Edwards, Tuten, Keel, Bunch, Parker, Potter, Cochran, Wells
wow Katfish actually you have a bunch of names that might be related..
Cochran ( through a male child of Shoeboots sisters daughter ) (Maggard? / Haggard? maybe..) Baker and or Field definitely and Terrel , Shepherd . Adkins , Turner for sure ! maybe Lewis and or Foreman or both ( some kinds of fighters ) … I probably found the Foreman on my hubby’s line and it is Mary boots Daughter of John Boots and full blooded cherokee woman.. Mary married a Foreman ( David)maybe…( having old moments… )
are some of these others the names that trace to your Roberts daughters? because these are names I am pretty sure grandma said in some conversations but not sure what the subject was. mostly she had to be talking about relations right? but maybe not .
names that kind of sound like these. others look interesting but not sure which line they go up on her lineage either. how were these names related to her.. she had a few native lines or mostly native lines.. all different tribes.
so Katfish can you get some of your ladies in that Roberts line to do their dna …. the one called little owl makes me think it is Shoeboots first wife’s line Mary polly( polly parrot ) Hamilton ?? . she was creek / shawnee or maybe white . what ages do you have on those Roberts daughters ? I think that raven and Mary Barnard might be Shoeboots or one of his brothers story.. because I am sure the name Barnards come into the family story someplace. but connected to what siblings I don’t know for sure.
Shoeboots first daughters would be born in the 1770’s to no later than around 1794.
and( ? Annie maybe ) who married a John Boggs would for sure be that line.
maybe mtdna could help out if we can get the right people tested..
see one of my big questions has been if Lady Cofitachiqui was up Ollie’s line or up Dolly’s line? Dolly was born in south Carolina too.. and I know for sure her direct line was indian and maybe tuscarora and for sure Siouan.
I don’t remember for sure but I always assumed it was Ollie line who was from that lady with the pearls.. and that is why Ollie’s mom got stolen by the Conostoga .
when their wise woman died maybe they wanted another one in the same line ..
but maybe ” lady” was in dolly’s line . I don’t remember for sure.
that is why I did mtdna was to try and sort this stuff out.
Most of these surnames are from my paternal lines. My fathers family has a rich mixture of ndn and they were endogamous in Appalachia for a couple hundred years so most of these surnames intertwine somehow. I would guess, some of these names are fairly common among descendants of Attakullakulla and Shoeboots.
Of course the lines to Attakullakulla come with some controversy over whether Aggy Owl was actually Howl or Ogle and the ndn claims are only supported by oral history (Cherokee of course) and weak circumstantial evidence. I’ve learned to take all claims to the Cherokee with a grain of salt and haven’t had a chance to dig into this one very deep yet.
Winnie was born in Russell VA abt1798 and died in Wise VA 1870, Mary Polly was born abt 1800 in Russell VA died in WiseVA 1864.
I don’t think I can help with dna at this time.
Katfish;37341 wrote: Most of these surnames are from my paternal lines. My fathers family has a rich mixture of ndn and they were endogamous in Appalachia for a couple hundred years so most of these surnames intertwine somehow. I would guess, some of these names are fairly common among descendants of Attakullakulla and Shoeboots.
Of course the lines to Attakullakulla come with some controversy over whether Aggy Owl was actually Howl or Ogle and the ndn claims are only supported by oral history (Cherokee of course) and weak circumstantial evidence. I’ve learned to take all claims to the Cherokee with a grain of salt and haven’t had a chance to dig into this one very deep yet.
Winnie was born in Russell VA abt1798 and died in Wise VA 1870, Mary Polly was born abt 1800 in Russell VA died in WiseVA 1864.
I don’t think I can help with dna at this time.
well I can’t tell if they might be from a daughter of Shoeboots sisters or Shoeboots first wife who is I think a mary polly… I do know lots of some people that I suspect are related to him are in
maybe Lunenburg VA , I haven’t looked at that stuff in so long I might have that wrong.
Polly Parrot/ Mary Polly is probably the name of( Mary polly Hamilton ? I am assuming she carried her dad’s last name ) and Her real story might be the Raven and captive story of a married woman named ‘ Mary Barnard’/ Bernard ? .. or one of Shoeboots brothers is Raven . Raven is a military name like captain I am told. and there may be more than one Mary in the family too. I know for sure there was a name like Barnard talked about, it definitely part of some story in this family .
trying to remember what is long forgotten some times on purpose is so hard because you can’t find well ” proof” of somethings… but I do believe Shoeboots first wife is named marry polly.. and she is called polly parrot … and she might have had a first husband named Barnard.
and she for sure is a daughter of Gov. henry ( Hair) Hamilton for sure, for sure .
Nannanae;37337 wrote: well good luck marc but can I just say that dna companies really don’t know how dna combines and or how it get passed down.. now they think they know.. but they don’t . sure they know what it looks like in a test tube and in theory..
but not in reality.
so wow you have your work cut out for you.. I at least had some clues when I was young of what I was looking for.. I can’t image trying to find connections the ways others are having to do it. ….. but anyway I do like that name Allen also. but I haven’t got a clue where the names I think I remember great grandma talking about connect to her lines..
I only know if they seem kind of close to her lines or not . if I find anything anything that might be interesting , I’ll let you know.
I agree. The DNA companies are more focused on how to make profit than on what DNA means to people and their families. GedMatch is not a company but a volunteer donation-funded effort from people who want to learn more from their DNA than the companies like 23andMe are giving them. GedMatch is much better than 23andMe for the purposes of people on SaponiTown because the matches you do find are much more likely to have detailed genealogy posted.
The DNA passing down that I’m talking about here is just Mendelian inheritance – the theory of chromosomes – which has been around for 150 years. Mendel’s laws stop short of explaining some forms of genetic inheritance, but it is a good basic tool to figure out what side people are related to you on. It’s not the whole picture, just another set of clues. Like in this case I can’t see how or if these two Shoeboots are related. From DNA it is clear that this person is somehow my cousin, and from genealogy it is clear that this Shoeboots wife is from a group of Saponi-related families discussed on this forum, but past that…?
Clearly we don’t have all the answers because the science is always evolving. To me it seems the more science evolves the more it is moving to a point where it is starts to meet with spiritual and philosophical truths. Especially in areas like DNA, quantum mechanics, chaos theory, and the theory of everything, or even the Heisenberg principle.
It’s like science needed to make certain assumptions about spirituality not being valid in order to start in the first place. But in the end it may end up ‘proving’ that spiritual explanations for things like DNA, the universe, the Great Mystery are actually as good as it gets. It’s a paradox, but so many things in life are, and maybe it is supposed to be that way. If everything sacred is round, and everything round is sacred – than is a circular definition not sacred as well?
But maybe I’m going way too deep for a 3am post. 🙂
What is clear here is this ‘Shoeboot’ his wife and daughter were in Caswell Co NC from the 1760s to 1880s and their ancestors were in Spotsylvania, Orange, and King and Queen Counties in VA. Other names on this line besides Lea, Rucker and Tinsley are Beauchamp, Fielding, Kavanaugh, Jackson, Taylor, Thompson, Herndon, Major, Ironmonger, Green, Digges and Campbell.
HI Marc
I don’t want to get into these things .. i’m sick of getting into it….. but
well dna inheritance is so much simpler than any one would believe…than anyone wants it to be.
and the only way all those theories men create work is if everything remain mysteries.
these mysteries help men remain racist and hateful and whatever they wish to be or to remain like .
so men can keep everyone confused and arguing for ages over one lie then another..
well dna is is kind of like that .
science won’t ever tell how simple it is because they just don’t want to know that. so they won’t ever ask that question to answer it for us . careers are built on all those complicated theories and the arguments they create !
my God is a God of law he wrote volumes for himself to keep.. .. he wrote 10 then 12 max for us and only he he keeps them all , we keep none of them and man writes volumes and volumes and warefor others to keep, but volumes upon volumes and volumes in wares houses after warehouses full ,that he never plans to keep..
man likes things complicated.. the more complicated the more they can wiggle out of it.
if you really want to know how simple it is , you will have to start raising some kind of animals and I will start explaining how simple , how purely simple creation is . but you have to do the breedings first and then we can all look at the results and explain it from the results.
but until people see it themselves , they won’t believe it anyway. so there is no since fighting with people who were taught it is just a unpredictable random mystery. we are preached that (undeniable facts” /crap scientism from everywhere and everything and every ‘ism’ that can just screams it.
And that is what we were taught from babies in cartoons even.., but what if it is wrong ? and so what if genetics aren’t really an unpredictable random mystery then maybe God isn’t either. what if God is perfect and is mathematical and if you know or learn his formulas= the laws he uses , the laws he wrote for himself to keep … . and thus what if he is lawful thus almost predictable. if he is predicable he is also knowable by those same laws. not controllable but predictable! Like gravity is predicable. gravity is only overcome by higher laws and thrust and lift are also somewhat predictable……. God says the highest law is love…but might I suggest there is lots of laws in between gravity and love.
but gravity is very predictably constant because he is constant . Gravity is only overcome by higher laws like thrust and lift. what if all of his creation and all his kind of heaven is kind of like that.. very simple very PURE very uncomplicated.
very mathematically constant thus predictable and only overcome by higher laws ?
is God really going to give man the power to screw up his creation? of course not .
nope He can start over with few animals in an ark.. right now ! easily, I mean easily ! because he is that simple that pure , genetics are just that simple that pure.
If men don’t know those laws in their simplicity how can the scientist tell you what was ?
they can only tell you what they want it to mean. how exactly did they come up with a clock of what was before they knew even how it works.. maybe because the goal is and was only a time clock..
well that is just something to think about in all the theories that can be thought about. 😛
I don’t disagree with anything you are saying. My family has everything from devout Christians to scientific atheists, I’ve been exposed to a wide array of viewpoints. I don’t have any answers, just observing. It strikes me the power of love and how we are really all part of the same universe no matter how different our beliefs. The Great Mystery I was referring to here is like Russell Means’ interpretation of Wakan Tanka. Not looking to start any controversy.
For decades I’ve bred plants so I know how simple it can be to breed for certain characteristics. This is the same way Mendel figured out the simple XX+XY chromosome theory – from breeding peas. Nature has a way of working things out. The part that is not so simple to me is how to explain things like all us descendants looking for our shared ancestors many years later. Is it all just random or were we put on this path by our ancestors generations ago? I don’t know if there is an ‘answer’, but I’m fascinated to hear people’s perspectives.
HI marc
well I don’t give my ancestors credit for what God himself has made me remember and made me figure out.
in my life I went to three christian seminars and each one the people would call me out and they would say
“God is demanding that you remember ” and I would walk out laughing. because I didn’t think it was important to remember.. my grandparents were indians not me.. not really.. there was just so much inner conflict with the stories and death … murder … mayhem.. man kind’s of pretty skuzzy. I still trust no one… I didn’t know what to do with some of this history and info , but to forget it, I just wanted to forget it . there was no resolution for it especially when I was young.
NO but He is all up into
old inheritances and old gifts , there is old old promises and promises he made just like Israel’s has, and the rest of the world has them also and Jesus doesn’t want anyone to forget what exactly he is promising to those who overcome the hell that has only ever existed between our right ears and our left ears.
it is God who has not let me forget .. and he and I had knock down drag outs, one after another….. until he won..:P
I am now so glad he won..;P
one day I might tell the dream about the frozen mammoth a friend had when she fasted for me and prayed for me..
it was the dream that finally made me willing to look back.. but I was only willing to because I really had forgotten what it was I didn’t want to remember. I was a frozen mammoth, frozen solid.
God has some grand plans and for everything lost he will pay back and only he is capable for paying back what has really really been lost. and he will do it! no he doesn’t want us to forget what is lost.. but to forgive what is lost.
then he can reward and he can give us his inheritance planned since before he created the world.
for the cherokee who’s family was from around the Coosa river with tales of being Siuox/ Blackfoot and Cherokee. your your grandma was a princess/ queen but not a cherokee one. But a blackfoot one and an Allegewi/
the biblical Elishah ( God saves ) before that . note all the kings names . some claiming to of Attalus and some claiming to be of Menes . other places with city states of this tribe were Algers and Aleshya and many many more all city states of what was a great trading nation. before the bronze age collapse and turtle island became turtle island. and all continents drained their water into what we now call the Atlantic ocean ( see millions of tons of mammoth bones off Norway in the sea ) .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alashiya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaşehir
and some promises hiding there in the book everyone here hates so much.
That story is some of your roots .
and also along with the older story of the Allegewi wars .
Now honestly I don’t know and don’t remember if Souix is Mengewi or Allegewi for sure . probably now a mix of both but best I can figure they are Mengewi and Menes killed many Allegewi kings.
Egyptian Pharoahs considered themselves God’s because their ancestor wiped out the old Great kings.
later those once great kings came to be worshipped as the Ba’als.
you know how men get stuff confused if it means they can usurp someone and separate someone from their stuff !
See pre bronze age collapse Narmer (aka Mn/Menes ) Palette with the 10 kings on it .
see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narmer_Palette
and the 10 kings and their kingdom he killed/ beheaded usurped their kingdoms and their city states and trading empires.
this also being the same 10 kingdoms probably all the same as we have come to be called
Atlantus , Attalus/ Atlas , even Aztalan.. by people of the world trying to remember true history .
instead of the goofiness of science version of stuff.. man they are nuts.
with this I hope I am as done with this as I can get.
have fun all my cousins.. bye!
Katfish;37341 wrote: Most of these surnames are from my paternal lines. My fathers family has a rich mixture of ndn and they were endogamous in Appalachia for a couple hundred years so most of these surnames intertwine somehow. I would guess, some of these names are fairly common among descendants of Attakullakulla and Shoeboots.
Of course the lines to Attakullakulla come with some controversy over whether Aggy Owl was actually Howl or Ogle and the ndn claims are only supported by oral history (Cherokee of course) and weak circumstantial evidence. I’ve learned to take all claims to the Cherokee with a grain of salt and haven’t had a chance to dig into this one very deep yet.
Winnie was born in Russell VA abt1798 and died in Wise VA 1870, Mary Polly was born abt 1800 in Russell VA died in WiseVA 1864.
I don’t think I can help with dna at this time.
HI katfish
oh wow ..on the “ Howl or Ogle”
I just read this and can only say that I can’t help you much except to say both of these names I know grandma sure may talked about . but I have been almost afraid to look into Ogle , it is in my head that she may have said something , but I can’t remember anything about it. but for sure the Howell (sp?)name is sure a name she said and I did check into it and found nothing at least in that spelling . but again I don’t remember any thing about it and haven’t found a written hint( in Howell ) in some record some place that helped me remember what she said. sorry If I every find anything that might trigger something I will let you know.
but as I get older the memory isn’t getting better at all.. so… 🙁
all I can say is I have been trying to remember as much as can for for a few years now. I will go read Ogle and that spelling of Howl and not Howell to see if anything looks familiar or triggers anything.
Howl or Ogle
so wow yes I think grandma did talk about those names.
I also didn’t check into Ogle after finding the name ” Oglethorp” is the ones I think that had the picture of Attakullkulla in England or somehow associated to that picture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trustee_Georgia
so I didn’t know what to do with that name after finding somehting so close to it went to England with Attakullkulla.
so I don’t know if she said Ogle otr Oglethorp or both .
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
