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Linda, you said —
After all, it was in 1743 that there were Tutelo documented to have risen in arms with the Seneca against the British in the Maryland area . . .
reply —
That is interesting. Is that on the website? Wher can I find a record of that? Thanks.
Here’s the good link to all the documentation Bess cited on this:
Thank you Sue.
The middle name of Hamilton is a clue. Just about all the people I have found descended from these families used a maiden name of an ancestor as a middle name.
Cindy,
Did you see that Monacan cemetery? It contains both Moss and Willis, as well as Anderson (Sue), Griffith and Hamilton’s (me) — surnames you and Cindy and I are all looking for. As I said, an “Anderson Griffith” married one of my Waylands, in Arkansas. Amherst County seems to be the place these surnames come together.
Now if any of us can connect OUR ancestors to the Monacan in Amherst County, well it would be something. Until then we are just guessing. It seems like before going to Amherst they were in Louisa County, so if our ancestors never made it to Amherst, they, the Amherst County Monacan, might have separated from ours in Louisa County. I am thinking some people stayed in or near Christianna, others drifted into Louisa County after Christianna closed sometime between the mid-1710s and about 1740. Some went towards Canada to become the Cayuga/Tutelo.
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I am theorizing the rest stayed in Central and Western parts of Virginia until the 1790s when they split up again, this time for good, some stayed there, ranging from Amherst County, Va south to known Melungeon lands of SW Va and bordering states, some North but not as far as Canada, some West to Indiana, and some to the Ozarks in North Arkansas and Southern Missouri — these lands looked a great deal like their former homes in Appalachia. For generations both the people of the Ozark Plateau and the people in Southern Appalachia were considered “hillbillies” and made fun of because of their customs that were a bit strange to those not from those regions.
From this point on they forgot to tell their children who their ancestors were. Once Christian, they were taught they should be ashamed of their ancestors whom they were told were “ignorant savages”.. Their children who knew they were part Indian but were never told what tribe. Nature abhors a vaccuum. They began to look at existiing tribes and used them to fill in the blanks, hence the stories of Cherokee ancestors.
I really want to meet some Amherst County Monacan now, as well as descendants of the Melungeons, and talk some of this through, if either are willing. I suspect there are other known intermarriages between surnames of known Melungeon’s and known Amherst County Indians from early days, and these marriages decreassed in number as time passed and each group forgot their relationship with the other.
vance
Thank you Linda for bringing up what Bess said. 1740’s date for Blackfoof ID in Maryland and Delaware corresponds to the same timeframe others dispersed in other directions.
I remember reading in Pat Elder’s book there was a time that @750 people were in one location, and next it mentioned 250 went to Fort Christianna, and wondering what happened to the other 500? I wonder if all Saponi/Tutelo/Occoneechee went to Fort Christianna at all. Maybe some stayed in central/western Va and NC. I wonder if some NC Cherokee are really Monacan/Catawba/Tuscarora/ . . . /et al?
vance
It could be the downsizing from 750 to 250 had to do with Seneca raids. At that point in time, the extinguishing of tribes was coming very much from enemy tribes who were grasping frantically to fill up their own dwindling numbers. Whoever still had enough men in the field to prevail was doing it for dear life. I really believe the reason the Pamunkey survived in place was because the Pamunkey queen went to the British and begged them to please come and take some of her land and have some white people live on it. Clever woman. She created a buffer between her small band and the raiding “foreign” Indians. It’s the oldest reservation in the US.
http://www.wisdomoftheelders.org/prog2/transcript02_ew.htm
The website above lists Monacan Indians who are surnamed “Woods” and “Hamilton” today, and it mentions Thomas Jefferson’s home near Chancellorsville. My ancestors can be traced to near Chancellorsville in the 1740s as Joseph Woods was born near there in 1746 I believe.
I saw a record somewhere of Thomas Jefferson seeing some Indians stopping at a mound on his lands and staying for a while and then moving on. This really made me wonder if maybe those people he saw were my ancestors. My ancestors left the area around Chancellorsville about 1768 or 1770 for Rockbridge County and they are in Wheeling W Va about 1781 or so, in E Tn by 1788, in S. Indiana by 1806, their daughter went to Arkansas by 1844, and their grandson to IT by 1872. He was my great grandpa who lived in the Chickasaw Nation near Duncan, Ok by the 1880s. I presently live about 75 miles west of Duncan.
I’d like to know where I can find that story about Thomas Jefferson seeing these Indians who visited a mound and wonder if my ancestors — Joseph Woods and Mary Hamilton — were there at that time. Does anyone know when Thomas Jefferson was recorded as seeing these Indians on his lands?
Vance
http://www.sevierlibrary.org/genealogy/landgrant/tsfb.htm
The above link lists Joseph Woods (my ancestor), and a Samuel Dickson, possible father of Polly and Nancy Dickson, the 2 Dickson girls who married the 2 Woods boys who were sons of Joseph and Mary [Hamilton] Woods — John and James Woods.
I previously thought I was descended from James and Nancy [Dickson] Woods but was just informed (and I accept I was wrong and they are right as the person informing me knows more about our Woods/Hamilton’s.) that we are descended from John and Polly [Dickson] Woods. Their daughter Mary (Polly) Woods m. John Richey in 1817 in Gibson Indiana. John and Mary died near the town of Powhatan, in Arkansas, and are buried in Old Lebanon Cemetery located near that place. Census records shows Mary Richey was born 1796 in Tennessee.
Vance
Well I couldn’t let it go until I had looked this up this morning as I knew I’d read it before, but I wasn’t aware exactly where Jefferson’s home was until this morning when I read his home was near Chancellorsville, and last week (maybe 2 weeks ago) I started researcvhing these woods and Hamiltons more thuroughly (since Emma showed me that Monacan link to Hamilton and Wood’s surnames — I had thought they were probably White to be honest with you — some ancestors are White and some Indian and I really don’t know which are which in some cases). But now I see Woods/Hamilton’s are also Monacan and they were nearby. Now I see that Jefferson’s home was very close to where my Woods/Hamilton ancestors were, which means those mounds were near them, too.
It says below —
http://ls.net/~newriver/va/oran1.htm
A party of Indians passing about 1751 where this barrow is, near Charlottesville, went through the woods directly to it, without any instructions or inquiry, and having staid about it some time, with expressions construed to be those of sorrow, returned to the high road, which they had left about six miles to pay this visit, and pursued their journey.”
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end of quote.
So Joseph Wood/Woods, my ancestor, would have been a 5 year old boy (more or less) when born in Albemarle County, Virginia, when Thomas Jefferson mentions this passing group of Indians who visited that mound. He is recorded leaving that county about 1768 or 1770 . . . that does have me wonderin’ . . . my Wood/Woods ancestors were near there at that time.
Vance
Interesting link, Vance. I see lots of names that appear on my family tree. Try this link for your story: http://www.pbs.org/wotp/tribes/monacans/
Cindy
Hi, Cheryl, I was reading your post about Ned Sizemore and how they were thrown off the rolls, etc. I read, not too long ago where it was proven through Y/DNA that Ned Sizemore was indeed Indian. So all those people that were excluded are now included. I wish I could remember where I read it.
Also, you mentioned the Harts? I have been looking for more information on George Hart. In 1783 in Marjorie Fischer’s Book, Tennesseans before 1800: “Matthew Hawkins and George Hart, Washington Co NC (TN) Court Records – for imparlee”. There is no explanation of this charge or action taken, if any.
The Roster of South Carolina Patriots in the American Revolution by Bobby G. Moss lists: George Hart. He enlisted in the Third Regiment on 1 Dec 1778 under Capt. Field Farrar abd was in the same regiment from 1 Feb 1780 to 30 Nov 1781. SCH&G., V.154; A.A. 3392A; K 85; N.A. 853.
Jeanne
Jeanne,
There is more to it than that. If a DNA test showed that they were Indian, it could not have said that they were Cherokee. It is the Cherokee rolls that they were rejected from.
Also those accepted on the Cherokee Dawes rolls were i.] on the 1880 and 1896 census of the Cherokee Nation listed as Cherokee and ii.] Living in the Cherokee Nation at the time of Dawes, about 1906 to 1908 or something like that.
Anyone not living in the 14 counties of NE Ok for that entire period from about 1880 to 1906 was excluded whether they were Cherokee or not. Dawes was initially just a record of who would be awarded 160 acres so the rest of the land could be open for white settlers. It was only in the 1970s it became the barometer for citizenship in the Cherokee Nation, when the new Cherokee Constitution was adapted.
Vance
Jeanne,
Thanks for your information. I think, don’t have it here at the computer, I have census information showing Sizemores and Harts living together and Sizemores were Tories. I’m not sure if George Hart could be my Catherine’s brother and be a Patriot. Hopefully, I’ll find out more soon. I’ll be traveling to DC for a few days at the beginning of May to do research. Right now I’m snowed under giving and grading finals.
I appreciate the detailed information and I may go to your sources for more infomation.
Thanks, Cheryl
Apparenlty, the people belonging to the WhiteTop Band in VA considered themselves Cherokee and membership was limited to relations of Ned Sizemore. But, there is other information in other places that questions whether he was Cherokee. I really hope to get a look at some of the Cherokee Applications from 1906/7 to see why some of his desendents were acceptable and why some were not. I have distant cousins living in WhiteTop and a couple family cemetaries are there.
Vance, That is very true. There is no dna test that will tell someone is Cherokee. I just don’t recall the article I read, but it is out here somewhere where the Sizemores were proven correct and all those people that were thrown off, were done so wrongly, that traced back through Ned “Edward” Sizemore. It seems it was in an article dealing with dna somehow. It stuck in my mind because of all the work and such they did – it was thrown out because it didn’t measure up in European measurements. I have learned at the Melungeon Unions that a person has to consider the family’s culture and oral tradition, also, when trying to ascertain the origins of a particular ancestor.
I was reading some of the posts here about people around Evansville, that is Warrick and Gibson Counties. Daddy said, as a child, there were many Shawnee on the streets of Evansville. Daddy was born 1921. I don’t know if it helps or hinders anyone, (I hope it helps) but, my experience has been that Native Americans went anywhere they pretty much wanted to go. There are migration paths for Europeans that are pretty much true. Then there are mixed peoples that migrated with the Europeans and some that didn’t, depending on their family closeness. It looks to me that many families that were of mixed cultures stuck together, and these people are pretty much left out of their European family’s histories. Many people today would just as soon not have the mixed people in their family’s records – and they sometimes get rid of them by labeling them “white”, which erases their ethnicity. I guess what I am trying to say is just because your ancestor doesn’t show up in the family you think they belong in, don’t give up. Keep looking – eventually you may be able to prove what you strongly believe. I can’t tell you how many times I have been told I am wrong, even since I have proven I am right with Y/DNA on my male European Hawkins line. Jeanne
Jeanne,
Thanks for the Sizemore information. I’ll be looking for the source of that infomration. If you bump into it again please let me know. The sad thing about it is the Cherokee applications were originally submitted for the benefit of the children in the families of that generation. In addition there are several generations who missed out on Federal benefits – like a college education and whatever else was available. I’m not clear on what the benefits really were since they were not considered to be available from my Mothers point of view. Now, it has been too many generations for us to be eligible for benefits.
Cheryl
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