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What a contribution! Thank you so much for all that information.
I’m wondering what the borders of Pitt county were in those days. Perhaps it was much larger before new counties were added. I know Tar River sounds right. Complicated. Don’t worry about any Hardy’s unless they’re in old Tuscarora territory. I think our friend’s family’s just been here. Same for Carter. I don’t think they’ve strayed beyond Mecklenburg, VA.
As for the silk worms, what time frame was all this going on? I know that before the invention of the cotton gin it was hard to work with cotton. And I believe silk worms had been pirated from China by the time our country was colonized.
I got a chance to look at your family tree on myfamily.com. I’ve been meaning to ask you, it’s very interesting to see that your Keels took a completely different route to Texas than your Collins. Do you have any theories on this? Is there documentation that the Keels were Saponi? They all must have been literate if they kept in touch over those generations and wound up in the same place in Texas. Wouldn’t you say?
The bit about one of the Keel kids requesting a master is striking. I guess he’s requesting an apprenticeship. Is there indication of the race of these kids? Or are you as mystified by what all this means as I am. Maybe the Heritage Center in town would get us in touch with someone who knows how to interpret this stuff.
I’m hoping we can all get our family info onto online trees. I’m not sure about myfamily.com. I’m having trouble getting the hang of it. I also have misgivings about putting all our data up on some big company site that could vanish someday, and all our data with it. We need to brainstorm about this. Maybe someone can research some shareware family tree program that we can all access and that can be published privately.
On this note, let me also say that I think we should look at having a few “archiving” volunteers. Let’s organize downloading our website and forum onto separate computers in separate locations so this information is not lost. This is OUR website, not MY website.
I’m sorry you’re feeling so lonesome out there. There’s good reason you’ve been called to tend to all this and it will all work out.
Mecou,Yes I am just as mistified by this request of a master too. According to the information they also put out the theory that these indentured may have been for debts or apprenticeships. No concrete fact though. On the race I am unsure what may have been found or seen since they sure wouldn’t have put anything saying Mallato or FPC. Being in Alabama and all. On the family ties it has been a strange string of “coincadence” that these two sides kept bumping into one another over the years. The thing is that different sides met up in different places over time. Most of my mom’s side came to Texas back around the late 1800’s and early 1900’s. The Scott family is a mystery because I have yet to trace their place of origins as yet. My fathers side had some coming into Texas during the drought time of the depression and then during the 1930’s a large number were thrown off lands in MO. There are so many stories about Indian heritage in many parts of each family that it has been very hard to keep tract. I know of my dad’s family lines that settled in every place with some line of my mom’s. It is kind of erie. Bila huk, Cotton Top
Also on the different routes taken to Texas. You may be surprised to note that there are Collins in Northern Alabama and Johnsons too. All related in some way or other.
Mecou guys,
What is the name of the Presbyterian Church and I’ll see what info I can dig up. I’ve been to W&M and getting any information out of them is like pulling teeth. I’m still trying to convince them to allow us to use the last remaining cannon from Ft. Christanna. No such luck.
I went to Hampton University to see what information I could gather there. They don’t want to let go of much either. What I keep running into is the whole “Big Secret” syndrome.
Let me know and I’ll see what I can do.
Crystal
Thinking about Texas…
My Grandfather’s Great Grandfather was a a slave in Virginia, who bought his freedom and went to Texas and became a Black Cowboy.
The thing is, I’ve seen a picture of My Grandma’s mother– she had wavy hair and almond eyes; oval face , thin lips.
Not too many “Pure African” looked like that.
I don’t get it.
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RavenWolf
Wahya Golanv
AniGilohi
AniGitlagvahita
Uganawvkalvgv Kituwah Ayeli- Southeast Kituwah Nation
Shardy,
I read your message on John Collins of Bertie Co. being the John Collins arrested in the 26 Saponi’s of Orange Co. Va 1742 court case. What documentation do you have that says he and Saponi John Collins are one in the same? I always felt it was possible as I believe it is also possible that David Collins 1750 , son of John of Bertie, and my Meredith”Meridia” are related in some way but after all these years of searching I still have no proof. We do know from the Will of John Collins of Bertie Co. that he owned several “slaves” and I would love to know who they were as well as children they brought forth. John Collins of Bertie Co. was an educated man and most of his children were also. Meredith “Meridia” Collins was not educated. No marriage record has ever been found in any of the three relationships and the only records I have discovered were signed with a mark X thus leading me to believe that he might have been the son of a slave woman. It is hard to understand in this year of 2001 with all the resources we have for searching that this man could just appear from nowhere.
You see I NOW use the name Meredith “Meridia” Collins. I am also convienced that the early records where his name appears as “Meridia” not Meredith might be correct. In 1776 when he enlisted in the Fincastle Co. Militia his name appeared as “Meridia” . In 1797 on microfilm of Wilkes Co. NC tax list his name also appears as “Meridia” . Question……Is there a meaning in Indian language for “Meridia” or when pronounced by the English was Meredith the closest sounding name?
Brenda Collins Dillon
[This message has been edited by Brenda Collins Dillon (edited 04-19-2001).]
Mecou Brenda, you should know full well this story by now. You and and Frankie are the ones that brought this tid bit of info. to our families attention. The names, dates, areas, and history give enough detail to know who is who. If you know something about John Collins that I do not may be you should share with this forum. We all also know that many Saponi were educated in the Indian schools and missions. We further know that many Saponi families had to list there relatives as slaves or else be jailed for tax evasion. You know this family line all too well. You, Frankie, and Richard have all three talked to me by phone. It has been from your conversations stating the very high likelyhood plus the Will, the census record, and the court records which piont to this conclusion. This is your documentation. If you have put out erroneous information about John Collins then perhaps you should correct it.
Looking at the Will I see listed Robin, Toney, Venus, and a mention of a possible future child. They are listed as negro, however, there is no mention of them being slaves in the since of the white man’s slave. If they were indeed slaves then some one will have to prove that by documentation. As far an accusation of my 6th great grand father John Collins being a slave master this is just not the case. Richard Haithcock knows my family well and can vouch for the information we have shared. The court document lists a John Collins and a John Jr. John Jr. is John Collins’ grandson. This documentation came from the census, tax, and Will records of the family. There are Bible records, Church records, and even a study done by the Forrest Service back in the 1930’s when they kicked our people off lands they had resided on for 150 years. The other documentations are in the works from what I am told and once the case record is fully revealed I am sure there will be enough documentation to choke a horse. On the issue of John Collins being well educated I think that is debatable. We do believe they had education, however, it was not extensive for some in the family for back then. If it were, then why could they not spell correctly or use proper gramer? Yes, they probably were more literate and educated than most others of the time but again Indians were getting educations back then. Indians also owned slaves. The records I have seen would suggest that the negros or mulattos in their house holds were more like family. There is at least one census record that I have seen that lists one of our Collins relatives in his early 20’s living with a negro wife. She was 16, he was 20 to 24. What conclusions would you draw? There is an African American identified portion of our family in Missouri as per some of the family I talked with there about 2 years ago. Alot of this stuff has been secreted away over the years to protect the family from the KKK which is active in those areas. I hope that you, Brenda, do not take either of these postings as a slight against you, for they are not. I will say this though; my correspondence with you and Frankie caused my ostrasization from my Missouri family. And I know why. I have even had threating language used at me by phone. I will also say that I have been trying to get away from all that hub bub because it is not productive. I will share information. I will continue the research and I will not be deterred. Even if all the world is against me I will continue. I do know the trueth of my heritage. My families on both sides are Indian. They represent many Nations enteracting. They are Saponi, Cherokee, Osage, Tuscarora, Choctaw, and Melungeon. They are also Irish, German, Dutch, and Scots. I make no pretence and I have no secrets. I answer questions as honestly and truthfully as I can with the information I have available. I have a cousin here in Texas that was raised by my great grandmother Ruthie. Ruthie spoke the Saponi language and Cherokee. This cousin is Donna Mae Jones and she remembers the words. I know who I am. I am a human being just like everyone else. I am trying to unravel the past years of assimilation too. People are putting my ancestors names in their books and then neglecting to involve us with the efforts of reviving our culture or flat out accusing us of some underhanded dealings which are unfounded at least concerning myself and my immediate family. I am the only voice to step out of the assimilation mold since my great grand mother and the only voice here in Texas that I am aware of. I realize that some of what was said here may be considered bad internet etiquette but I am tired of being silent for past 2 years. I want to be apart of my people where ever they are. Bila huk, Cotton Top
Hmmm. I can see feelings are strong. I don’t know how much effort this would take, but I would very much like to see the plain data, with no interpretation. Not that I want to see a precedent set of us questioning one another’s conclusions. I suppose we’ll go through some of that, inevitably, but hopefully we’re going to always have to keep a certain humility that on an ultimate level these issues are a matter of BELIEF rather than fact. After 300 years, a sparse record of a primarily “illiterate” population only loosely connected to the record-keeping government is never going to reveal that much. Ultimately we have to rely on what we feel.
I have zero expectation of finding “proof” of my family’s origins. So far, I’ve found way, way more than I ever expected, and enough that I am satisfied on certain points.
I don’t want to see us just believing what one person said, taking that as fact, teaching that to someone else and so on until we’ve created a whole mythology that will eventually come down around our ears. I’d like to see good academic methods used, citing our sources, helping one another access primary sources and hashing through the interpretations.
On the other hand, I don’t intend to wait until every t is crossed and every I dotted. Basically, because I don’t think that will ever happen, and I think we’ve got other work to do. We’re supposed to be celebrating WHOEVER it is out there who got intentionally buried and forgotten. Hopefully that spirit will dominate.
On the issue of slavery, I have a feeling we may have to belly up to the bar and face the possibility that some of our people truly owned slaves. My friend, Gene, has finished dissertation research on our neighbors, the Tuscarora in NC and they were HEAVY into selling Indian slaves into New England in early colonial days.
I asked him, did they realize that this was a nasty, lifelong slavery, not the relatively benign captivity that led to adoption that Natives were accustomed to. He said, they knew. They had to know. They were getting quite rich on some big business and had to know what was up.
I’ve been talking to another guy up on the Tuscarora reservation who gave me an interpretation, I’m not sure if it’s a modern spin on the same book learning we’re all doing, or if it’s oral history from way back. It has to do with how the warring faction of Tuscarora were “sold down the river” by another faction. I got the picture of a relatively assimilated group, led by an Anglicized guy who could wheel and deal with the whites, who didn’t have the grievances the main body did. Those are the people believed to have stayed behind, too. It may be that this was going on with our people too. I don’t think by any means, those are the ONLY people who did not refugee to the Iroquois, but we’re fooling ourselves if we reject that that’s some of the story.
It’s my understanding that in North Carolina as a whole, slaveholders averaged a small number of slaves and they all tended to work side by side. There’s an account at (19th century) Governor Aycock’s birthplace of him sitting at the family dinner table shooting peas with a boy his age who was a slave in the family.
In my mind, the assimilated generations we may be finding in the record are likely not the Old Souls calling to us, so how they acclimated to their situation is not all that important to me. Those Old Souls aren’t going to be communicating via paper trails in the first place. Those trails are just what we’re familiar with and we should use them to make ourselves comfortable, but know they’re only going to take us so far. Eventually there’s going to come a place for a leap in faith.
[This message has been edited by Linda (edited 04-18-2001).]
Shardy,
WOW, I didn’t mean to step on any toes. I have been out of touch for several months and thought something might have surfaced as proof of the John of 1742 and John of Bertie Co.NC.
Brenda
Just came across this timeline. It might be what’s needed to make this issue comprehensible.
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IT BEGINS:
Timeline for COLLINS in NC, TN, VA and KY
1742 Orange Co VA
27 Jan 1742 Thursday the xxviith day of January MDCCXLIII “Alexander Machartoon, John Bowling, Manicassa, Capt. Tom, Isaac, Harry, Blind Tom, Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins, Little Jack. Indians being brought before the court by precept under the hands and seals of Wm Russell & Edward Spencer, Gent. for terrifying one Lawrence Strother & on suspicion of stealing hoggs……..” The above put up security individually. It was ordered that their guns be taken from them till they are ready to depart out of this county, “they having declared their intentions to the Court to depart this colony within a week” (Orange Co..VA Order Book 3 1741-1743. 309) Orange Co Va Microfilm Reel 31, Va State Archives.
**See 12 May 1742, Orange Co..Va, reference to “about twenty-six of the Saponi Indians that inhabit on “Colonel Spotswood’s land. Charles Griffin had been a white man who taught school in the Saponi Indian town at Fort Christiana from January 1715 NS to the spring of 1718.
To continue with the lengthy list of descendants click on http://members.nbci.com/Appalachian/html/timeline.html
Mecou, I am sorry if anyone was offended by my words. You have to understand that in the past two years it has taken alot for me not to just burn all this information I have collected across 15 years of research. Probably about 50 to 75 % of what I have collected over the years is information I was led to that others put together and I have never made any bones about it. I will be listing sources and transcribing the information presently. Yes, like most others I am interested in pure research too. I do not run on assumptions of one particular individual. Nor do I necessarily reley strictly on my own interpretation of the information I come across. I have consulted with professors, family, other ametuer genalogists like myself, etc… I believe I have listed sources in the past on books that I had read in regards to some issues. I will do like-wise in future. Again if anyone was offended by anything that I have said please accept my appologies. My mission in life is not to hurt or harm anyone. Bila huk, Cotton Top
We cannot get too formal with all of this. There is place for family lore, ideas, intuition, conjecture and theories. We don’t want to discard this. Likely none of us will have 100% documentation on very much. All East Coast Indians are in the same boat.
There is a forum thread specifically for this type info:
It is critical for us to keep information flowing informally and open in order to synergized and figure out how things fit together.
Linda,
The URL you listed was for the website put together by Frankie Blackburn, William Martin and myself. It is a site of gathered research placed online to share with others searching the same line. The TIMELINE mentioned was authored by Frankie and myself as a tool to track her Griffin and the four Collins men that joined the RW together in 1776 that I have been looking for. I wanted to correct you on the wording of “descendants” as all on that list is not related but other Collins that appear in the same area as did ours. It is possible they are related in some way and just as possible they are from other lines.
The connection of Griffin and “Meridia” is that Griffin signed the marriage bond for my John W. Collins to Lydia Toner in Grainger Co. TN 1821( U of TN Library). John W. was the son of Meridia thus there appears to be a link between the two men but what has never been proven. The four Collins men who entered McDaniel’s Fincastle Co. militia in 1776 were enlisted on the same day and in the same district: George, David,Lewis, and Meridia Collins. The record was found in the basement of the Christianburg, Va. courthouse and a copy was sent to me. There is a partial list on my website but the list was in the old handwritting and very hard to read. Of those four Collins men they were still together in the Montgomery Co. militia durning the 1780’s ( Kegley’s book) and David, Lewis and Meridia were together as late as 1796 Wilkes Co. NC tax list. As near as we could find, David and Lewis went to Tennessee and Meridia showes up on a Russell Co. tax list in 1799. He remained there til 1809 and moved across into Kentucky by 1810.
Brenda
[This message has been edited by Brenda Collins Dillon (edited 04-19-2001).]
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