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Felix Grundy was a guy from W.Va who moved to KY, became a lawyer, became very famous, moved to Tenn and became the Governor, Hundreds if not Thousands of families named kids after him causing terrible confusion about whether they were related to this guy – almost none are. Umbleton had a brother by that name – they’re not related to the Grundys.
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There are only 3 Gregory families on the census records of 1850 Fayette Co., Texas.
Umbleton Gregory (listed as “U. Gregory”, 55, – (White), Ky.) The handwriting is so sloppy that it does look like an “N.” and it’s indexed as “W.”, but this is a “U.” and it is Umbleton, with his 3rd wife Mary, 32, b. Ky, (nee: Hewitt, marr’d 25 April 1844 Marion Co., Mo.), and their children:
Sarah, 18, b.Mo.
Finetta, 11, female, Mo.
Malzaniana, 9, female, Mo.
Algernon, 13, male, Mo.
Alvin, 5, Mo.
Dullceany, 3, female, Tex.
U. S., 1, male, Tex.
(Umbleton’s parents were marr’d 9 Oct 1793 in Mercer Co., Ky)
2 doors away is A. D. Gregory, 28, (white), b.Tenn.
with wife Margaret, 21, (white), Ky.
Texanna, 2, female, Tex.
Amanda, 1, Tex.
(Abraham Duren, son of Umbleton and 1st wife Sarah “Sally” Duren, marr’d 15 Sept 1818 Sumner Co., Tenn.)
A considerable distance away is
D. G. Gregory, 41, m, (white), Physician, $1600, Tenn.
Mary, 41, f, (white), Tenn. (all children “white”)
ROBERT, 24, m, Druggist, Tenn.*******
Mary, 18, f, Tenn.
Charles, 16, m, Student, Mo.
Thomas, 14, m, Mo.
Julia, 14, f, Mo.
Emerline, 8, f, Mo. (same as Emily)
Missouri, 5, f, Mo.
William, 2, m, Texas.
The 1860 census adds children:
John A., 10, Tex.
David, 5, Tex.
(Naming order: 1st born son after his father’s father = Robert.
2nd born son after the mother’s father = Charles.
it’s interesting that David named his 1st born son “Robert” and that there is a Robert Gregory earlier in Tenn. Equally interesting is that the 2nd born son was named Charles and there is a Charles Fant in 1840 & 1850 Missouri living next door to a David Gregory in 1840, but this is a different David Gregory than the one in Fayette Co., Tex. since he moved back and forth from Missouri to Texas to Missouri and back to Texas but his wife’s name was Martha.)
In 1840 Clark Co., Mo., is Umbleton (misspelled as “Humbleton”), his brother Burrell (misspelled as “Burl”), and “U. S.” who is probably Uriah S., a 1st cousin, son of Umbleton’s uncle Uriah. All 3 are listed as 40 to 49 yrs old and white.
In 1830, Umbleton was in Tipton Co, Tenn (next county north of Memphis).
In 1820, Umbleton (again misspelled as “Humbleton”, is in Sumner Co., Tenn with the following Gregory heads of households:
Isaac, over 45 yrs old.
George, over 45.
Jacob, 26 to 44.
John, 26 to 44.
John, 26 to 44. (two of them)
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Bill
What is the source of your information that David G. Gregory’s wife’s maiden name was FANT? I’m thinking we could be missing a generation here. Mary was the name of Charles Fant’s wife in Missouri.
Are you descended from David Gregory’s son Robert Gregory?
Bill
Holy Moly, you’re good!!
My new-found Cuz, Sandra Gregory, will be very excited about this!
Originally posted by Bill Childs
Felix Grundy was a guy from W.Va who moved to KY, became a lawyer, became very famous, moved to Tenn and became the Governor, Hundreds if not Thousands of families named kids after him causing terrible confusion about whether they were related to this guy – almost none are. Umbleton had a brother by that name – they’re not related to the Grundys.
Oops. (Like my Thomas Jefferson Hughes is no relation to TJ.) Why did you ask about Gabriel?
Originally posted by Bill Childs
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There are only 3 Gregory families on the census records of 1850 Fayette Co., Texas.
Hmm. I’ve been looking back through my records and haven’t found yet where I got the idea of a ‘black’ family of Gregorys (it was something I saw in passing back before it seemed relevant, so didn’t note it). I did find an 1880 census family in Fayette, with a William and Mary Ann, (kids Mahala and Sarah) recorded as black, but don’t know when they arrived or if they are related.
Originally posted by Bill Childs
A considerable distance away is
D. G. Gregory, 41, m, (white), Physician, $1600, Tenn.
Mary, 41, f, (white), Tenn. (all children “white”)
ROBERT, 24, m, Druggist, Tenn.*******
Mary, 18, f, Tenn.
Charles, 16, m, Student, Mo.
Thomas, 14, m, Mo.
Julia, 14, f, Mo.
Emerline, 8, f, Mo. (same as Emily)
Missouri, 5, f, Mo.
William, 2, m, Texas.
The 1860 census adds children:
John A., 10, Tex.
David, 5, Tex.
This is my (and Sandra’s bunch.) First oddity: DG is a reverend (Cumberland minister), and in a history of Fayette is discussed as a lawyer. Don’t know what this means or if it has any relevance to anything but… DGG had several druggist connections (Routh, and Moore) records himself as a physician and apparently practiced medicine, but someone else who arrived later is officially noted as the first doctor in town.
My g-grandma was Nellie Gregory, raised by Edgar S. Gregory, born April 1875 in Texas (and Emily Rordorf, another woman of mystery) who were claimed to be her parents. Edgar Spencer Gregory was Thomas Clark Gregory’s son, the Thomas who arrived in 1848, and is noted in census above.
But… Looking further at Nellie, there are records that suggest that she may really have been Edgar’s cousin, and William David Gregory’s daughter (by Elizabeth Kirk or Vick). WGG (1858, Texas) was the son of Robert F. I don’t know what happened to WDG.
(Second oddity is that my mother was told that both Edgar S. and Emily were orphans, though Thomas C. wasn’t dead.)
Originally posted by Bill Childs
(Naming order: 1st born son after his father’s father = Robert.
2nd born son after the mother’s father = Charles.
it’s interesting that David named his 1st born son “Robert” and that there is a Robert Gregory earlier in Tenn.
This is where it starts to get exciting! Do you have a DOB on Robert? And a county? (Btw, I’ve seen David G. recorded as being from Hawkins, Bradley, Maury and Rutherford counties in Tennessee. Sheesh.)
Originally posted by Bill Childs
Equally interesting is that the 2nd born son was named Charles and there is a Charles Fant in 1840 & 1850 Missouri living next door to a David Gregory in 1840, but this is a different David Gregory than the one in Fayette Co., Tex. since he moved back and forth from Missouri to Texas to Missouri and back to Texas but his wife’s name was Martha.)
Hmm! I’m making leaps again but… could David have had a second wife? As former Cumberland minister in ‘Indian Territory’ MO/KS he may have had an excuse to travel.
Originally posted by Bill Childs
In 1820, Umbleton (again misspelled as “Humbleton”, is in Sumner Co., Tenn with the following Gregory heads of households:
Isaac, over 45 yrs old.
George, over 45.
Jacob, 26 to 44.
John, 26 to 44.
John, 26 to 44. (two of them)
……………………
Bill
There is an Isaac who is the father of Gerard/Jarred (married to Freelove). Gerard was the one I thought might be David’s father, as he has several name unknown children of the right age, right general area, and he’s the only G name I’d found.
I guess I wouldn’t be following this one up so hard when, unlike other family lines, there were no claims of mixed heritage, but I met Nellie. And, as an eleven year old girl from a black neighborhood, visiting a prejudiced white Texas world, I was struck by a strong ’emperor has no clothes’ feeling that no one noticed she wasn’t white.
Originally posted by Bill Childs
What is the source of your information that David G. Gregory’s wife’s maiden name was FANT? I’m thinking we could be missing a generation here. Mary was the name of Charles Fant’s wife in Missouri.
Are you descended from David Gregory’s son Robert Gregory?
Bill
Huh! Could Mary have named her daughter Mary? (My family lines seem to do that a lot.) How old was Charles’ wife?
I don’t have their marriage records, she’s just listed that way on every record I’ve found. Will look back but I think it’s things like the church write-up after he died, and that sort of thing. Never a mention of parents, though.
Still trying to determine if Nell is descended from David through Thomas or Robert. She was definitely raised by Edgar, though, because my mom knew them. (Otherwise, they had a strong ‘children shouldn’t ask questions’ mentality.)
Another family oddity, (the kind of thing that makes me say, ‘hmm’), is that Nell’s ex-husband, James L. Moore, a mean prejudiced rude old man when I met him, apparently was the only one in town to hire an African-American in a non-menial job. JM had a butcher shop and hired a man named Bobo as a butcher.
(My mother used to go into the shop as a little girl. One of her reasons for leaving Texas had to do with Bobo and his whole family being killed in a suspicious fire, and the callous attitude of the white townspeople about it.)
Originally posted by Bill Childs
What is the source of your information that David G. Gregory’s wife’s maiden name was FANT? I’m thinking we could be missing a generation here. Mary was the name of Charles Fant’s wife in Missouri.
Ya know, there is a Mary Fant married to Barnett Fritter in VA who seems to go missing (he apparently then marries her sister), and another Mary Fant of the right age who is recorded by one (unreliable) source a being married to a Richard Owings in MO, and dieing in 1848 — right when DGG and Mary go off to Texas. I’ve been wondering if maybe what they are hiding is that she left her husband to run off with the good Rev.
They are surely hiding something — it just doesn’t make sense that a guy who is as well-known as he is once he arrives in Fayette Texas, (among other things he was the first postmaster, if I recall correctly,) and one who has so many kids, one who continues to associate with a another Gregory, who just Has to be a relative, has parents who are so hard to trace. He’s written up in Fayette history, in church history, etc. practices medicine, is known as a careful, thorough man. It just doesn’t fit his character.
Why no parents for him or Mary? (Rhetorical question, really. I have a tendency to read mysteries into this, when often it’s just my amateurish and disorganized research. :rolleyes: )
And thank you so much for following up on this. Some day I’ll get back to chasing the family NDNs again. Btw, you’ve given me so ideas about those other lines with your comment about second son often being named after his mother’s father. I put together the Lewis Wimberly connection as a possible for Zachariah, myself, but have wondered why no Stephen for Quinney. Well, their second son is WARREN, and that was the one child I couldn’t find who he could possibly be named after. All the rest their is an uncle or something. And Warren is a name that got passed down in my family, to my grandfather. So could the various reports that Stephen Vaughan is Quinney’s father be wrong? As I don’t have a birth cert for her, it seems possible. With Joel Bird paying their marriage bond, and no obvious connection between him and Z or Q, I’m going to start looking for a Warren Bird. What do you think?
Oops again. Gerard Gregory does mention a son David in his will, but it’s recorded as David W. and I wondered if it wasn’t another of those transcribing errors because some of this stuff is so hard to read. Does that make sense? (Still wondering about your Gabriel though, and Robert.)
Oh, and I think there is a black Richard Gregory (1835) in Pinckney, SC, which is where another unclear line comes from, Richard Emery Hughes. (The local SC Moores also seem to know my Hughes and marry them later in Texas, including the one who did the seemingly out-of-character thing by hiring an African-American butcher in responsible position.) My mother also remembers Nell hanging around with a Native-American man called Black Jack or One-eyed Jack. She didn’t know his last name.
Hope you don’t mind me putting all this jumble here. It helps me sort it out and notice discrepancies to write down some narrative, rather than just names and dates.
Okay, let’s start at the begining where all good journeys start and organize this.
What are the names of your 4 grandparents and where do you think they lived?
About when were they born?
What is your mother’s first name?
(That’s all that’s necessary if any of these people were born before 1930.)
Bill
Originally posted by Bill Childs
Okay, let’s start at the begining where all good journeys start and organize this.
What are the names of your 4 grandparents and where do you think they lived?
About when were they born?
What is your mother’s first name?
(That’s all that’s necessary if any of these people were born before 1930.)
Bill
Well I was gonna say are you sure you want to get into this but… never look a gift horse in the mouth, so I’ll just say Thank You, instead.
My mother’s name is Raynelle Ruth Hughes, born july 16, 1935 in Los Angeles, I think, accidentally, as i think they may have been traveling. (will ask her again.) But she grew up in Texas, in Wimberley. My grandma’s name was Ruth Francis Moore (born about 1915/16, in Texas — Wimberley? or La Grange?) married to Warren Wimberley Hughes (11/17/1909 in Wimberley Texas). After that there is Warren Wimberley Hughes’ mother Elizabeth Mary Wimberley, born 7/23/1869. Her side is the side I started trying to trace because Grandpa told my mother that there is a Blackfoot Indian woman on the Wimberley line. Elizabeth’s father was Pleasant Wimberley, mother Amanda Jackson. Pleasant’s father was Zachariah Wimberley and wife Quinney Mays Vaughan. They are the mystery couple and likely native-american connection, as particulars match. (Some things also match for the man I suspect could be Zachariah’s father — Lewis Wimberley married first to Martha Barbee.
The other side I have reason to wonder about is my grandmother, Ruth Frances Moore’s mother Nell Gregory, claimed to be born 1894 to Edgar Spencer Gregory and Emily Rordorf, but I believe she was born in around 1883 to someone else and raised by them. Possibly to William David Gregory, son of Robert F., and to either Elizabeth Vick or Kirk.
(My father’s side is very unlikely to have any Native-American connections. But just because you asked, and I’m finding them even harder to trace than the other side — Goldie Gellis born June 15 1903, I think, in New York. Married to Sam Feinstein, born 3/21/1896 in a town near Romania but came to LA and got social security card there. His father was Abraham Feinstein, mother Rebecca — and I’ve love to trace her as she is from Alexandria, Egypt. Guess how hard that is to trace!)
I can give you better dates, or do it up as a clearer tree if you like, later, but must go pick up son at nursery school now. Thank you so much!
Census records show Nellie to be the dau of Edgar & Amelia Gregory (no other Gregory had a daughter Nell/Nellie).
Edgar was the son of Thomas Clark Gregory and Lucinda Jane Moore, marr’d April 1861 LaGrange, Tex.
Thomas is the son of David G. Gregory and Mary Fant.
Lucinda is the dau of Henry Moore & Allethia Reeves.
……Sources and more:
From the 1910 Travis Co., Texas Census; District 76 Austin, 5th Ward, 3rd Pct, pg.157A:
Gregory, Edgar; Clerk; m, W, 35, m-1, 15; Tex, Tex, Tex.
(ditto), Amelia; Wife; f, W, 33, m-1, 15, 3/3; Tex, Ger, Ger.
(ditto), NELLI; dau; f, W, 14; Tex.*******
(ditto), Ruth; dau; f, W, 12; Tex.
(ditto), Florence; dau, f, W, 5; Tex.
Edgar was a Railroad Clerk. Edgar and Amelia have been married only one time (m-1) and have been married for 15 yrs. Both are listed as b.Tex, as are Edgar’s father and mother. Amelia’s parents were both born in Germany. Amelia has had 3 children and 3 are still living (3/3).
“Nelli” is listed as their dau.
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1900 Fayette Co., Tex; City of LaGrange, 1st Ward; pg.62A:
Gregory, Edgar S.; Clerk; W, m, Apr 1875, 25; m-5; Tex, Mo, Ms.
(ditto), Amelia; wife; W, f, Apr 1876, 24; m-5; 2/2; Tex, Ger, Ger.
(ditto), NELLIE; dau; W, f, Jun 1895; 4; Tex.*******
(ditto), Ruth; dau; W, f, Jan 1898; 2; Tex.
Edgar works for the Railroad. Edgar and Amelia have been marr’d 5 years; His father is now listed as born Missouri and his mother as born Mississippi.
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1880 Fayette Co., Tex; Dist. 55 LaGrange; pg.8D:
GREGORY,
T. C.; W, m, 41, Druggist; Ks, Tn, Tn.
L. J.; W, m, 41, wife; Ms, NC, Tn.
Ella; 16, dau, Tex.
Hue C.; 14, son, Tex.
Mary A.; 12, dau, Tex
Irene; 8, dau, Tex.
Thomas R.; 6, son, Tex.
EDGAR; 5, son, Tex. *******
Minna; 3, dau, Tex.
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F.Y.I……
Robert Gregory probably died shortly after the Civil War (didn’t find him on any casualty list for the War) – Ada listed as Widowed on 1870 Fayette Co census, pg.509A, living at and keeping house for the Sheriff Richard O. Faires, 28. Ada’s children were:
Mollie, 15; Billie, 13; Ida, 10; Bob, 7. In 1880 Fayette Co., Tex, Ada, 43, lived with her parents William & Alice Scallion/Scallon, both 84 and b.Ky. Ada’s brother William, b.abt.1830, also living there and widowed, was also a Physician (William’s wife Mary K. _?_, b.abt.1841 Alabama). Ada’s children listed as Ida, 19; Robert, 17; Madison, 14.
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1870 Fayette Co., Tex; LaGrange, pg.514:
GREGORY,
Thos. C., 32, m, W, Druggist, $1500 R.E., $3000 Pers.Prop; Mo.
Jennie, 32, f, W, $900 R.E., $0; Mi. (actually b. Mississippi)
Ella, 6, f, W, Tex.
Hugh, 4, m, W, Tex.
Mary, 2, f, W, Tex.
Living here also:
McPETERS, Hanna; 26, f, W, Miss.
MOORE, Mary E.; 34, f, W, Miss.
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1860 Fayette Co., Tex; LaGrange; pg.305 (census taker was A.D. Gregory):
D.G. Gregory, 51, m, W; M.D.& Druggist; $2800; $5790, Tenn.
Mary, 50, f, W, Tenn.
Emily, 16, f, Mo.
Missouri, 14, f, Mo.
William, 12, m, Tex.
John A., 10, m, Tex.
David, 5, m, Tex.
Thomas, 21, m, W, Dep.Post Master, $0, $3500, Indian Terr.
next door is Charles W., another son of David G.:
C.W. Gregory, 24, m, W, Druggist, $1500, $3000, Indian Terr.
Francis Gregory, 20, f, W, Tenn.
D. W. Murphy, 20, m, W, Clerk, Tenn.
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Already gave you the 1850 Fayette Co Tex census data.
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Speculation only at this point:
You said you had information about David G. Gregory being born in Hawkins Co., Tenn?? and remember what I said about naming conventions?
Next door to Hawkins Co is Greene Co., Tenn, where a Robert Gregory marr’d Rachal ROSS on 3 May 1808. (“Tennessee Bible Records and Marriage Bonds” by Jeannette Acklen, 1933.)
I haven’t been able to find this Robert Gregory for certain after that. More later.
Bill
Arrgh. I wrote you a long reply this afternoon and managed to delete the whole thing. (Lucky you. 😉 )
That bit about Robert G. and Rachel Ross is intriguing. The marriage date is right. An obituary for David gives his DOB as May 29, 1809 in Hawkins. (I’d looked on Hawkins and Sevier Co census for Gregorys and Fants in 1830, as they weren’t reported as having gone to Missouri by then but there was nothing. Couldn’t get census records for those counties before 1830. Now I’ll try Greene Co.)
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I’d wondered about about Lucinda’s mother, Alethea Reeves (b.1803 in Franklin Co. TN to Burgess Reeves and Frances Maudlin) whom you’ve mentioned. Isn’t Reeves a name I’ve seen on Indian Rolls a lot?
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As to Edgar Spencer Gregory and Emily Rordorf (Emilia von Rohrdorf is the name my mother was told) there are still some questions. It would help if I knew:
Do the census takers actually see the kids? So if they report a child as 5 years old, she couldn’t actually be, say, 14? It would be great to see the 1890 census to confirm Nell Gregory wasn’t around then.
If Nell really was born in 1894/5 and not around 1883, (which would mean she was likely truly Emily’s child rather than some Gregory cousin), then I’m gonna need to trace Emily’s forebears to solve my Nell mystery.
One report says the Rordorfs or Rohrdorfs, from Cat Springs, are on the Fayette census in 1870. That they have children Bertha (1864), Hulda (1868), Caroline (1870), Mathilda (1874), and Emilia (1879). And that by 1880 census, the parents no longer show up and neither do Caroline and Nora. But all I could find was Bertha, living as a servant in the household of JA Lampe in 1880. Couldn’t find the other kids.
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One oddity is that my mother says Edgar and Emily were quite well-off and that she thought the money was Emily’s (seems unlikely to have been Edgar’s, with him being a railroad clerk/scheduler). So why was her sister working as a servant?
Btw, my mother was told both Emily/Amelia and Edgar were orphans, which doesn’t seem to be true in his case at least. And she said that Nell’s mother was also dark like Nell and had the same wooly hair. Nell looked like a dark Portugeuse or Jewish woman, or Melungeon. She definitely didn’t look like any German or Swiss (which is what the Rohrdorf name is purported to be) I’ve ever seen. Black German? 😀
I’m not being critical of you but you have a certain lack of understanding of what you’re looking for….
If you have a history of “Blackfoot” and your line came out of Tenn, NC & Va (as this Gregory line does), don’t expect everyone in the 1850’s in Texas to “look” native (or anything else), OR for everyone to “look” white in this time frame. Most were very assimilated by then and many certainly would have passed for white…. you’re looking at a number of effects whose “causes” are more remote in time. Ativistic traits (“throw-backs”) occur all too often.
AND you’re taking this census “data” TOO literally.
Census takers weren’t scientists – they only “knew what they knowed”. They were political appointees – and then you have the problem in Fayette Co Texas where some of the census takers were related to family lines that you have been told were native but these families that the census takers were “recording” were “pillars” of the community….. go figure how accurate that “race” information on that census MIGHT be??? In Texas, AFTER the Civil War!?
Don’t be concerned with someone being designated “White” whose sons/dau’s were dark and/or even had nappy hair…. Race was, and still is, a VERY subjective thing where census records are concerned – or even if you meet someone on the street today for that matter.
The “man of the house” was usually out working so the census taker was usually talking with the “woman of the house” or even one of the children (even more spurious “data” !), but if no one was home (everyone was “working out” or was way out in the fields and the census taker didn’t want to be bothered to earn his 2 cents worth), the neighbors were even interviewed for the information……..
It’s obvious from looking at LOTTSA records that the “woman of the house” didn’t necessarily even know where her husband was born and certainly in many, many cases, didn’t know where HIS parents were born – hence the changing information on PARTICULARLY the “head” of the family.
Lack of information equals mysteries……
don’t loose focus.
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Yes, there’s some REEVES/RIVES on Rolls. Rolls are recent creations and no half-way decent researcher would put much stock in them – except for “Government Recogition” purposes which we’re not into here. “If there’s one Indian line there’s another”. A mixed race family’s children had fewer choices. You’re “Tainted” anyway 🙂 these Gregorys passed thru Granville and Person Co., NC in the 1780s!
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A child might be listed as 6 or 7 yrs old instead of 4 or 5 yrs old, etc., ……. but the age range probably would not be off by as much as 10 years or more except for when the parents’ ages were recorded as a result of the children or neighbors being interviewed for the information by the census takers.
You might be looking at the wrong Rohrdorf family or have misidentifed the wrong Amelia as an Emily……. don’t worry, be happy….. we’ll see about checking that out.
Looking at all the issues you’ve raised, Nell was Edgar and Amelia’s daughter and Amelia’s parents are “German” on her census listings but I’ve not really looked for them so who knows, maybe they were from NC instead of Germany – I’m not being facetious, just keeping an open mind. Orphans? Doubt it. “Orphan Stories” have too often turned out to be a family fable hiding interracial mixing. (When I challenged my Grandmother’s story that my 3rd-Grt-Grandfather was an “Orphan”, she feshedup that they were mixed-Indian as were many of the interconnecting lines and she knew their names and “about” when all of them were born even – but she was wrong about “where” they were born.)
Where DID the “Nell was born about 1883” info come from?
Sources are everything 🙂
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BTW…. many Germans ARE dark complexioned, with high cheek bones and nearly black eyes…. particularly in the South and Southeast – products of the barbarian invasions from Central Europe and Asia over a thousand -1500 years earlier. Far less than 25% of Germans are blue & blonde.
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The money probably came from the GREGORY side of the family…
The myth of the “poor” Indian in this connection is often just a myth insofar as mixed bloods are concerned, so don’t expect to always find poor injuns.
Edgar Spencer Gregory was the son of a “rich” Druggist whose father was an M.D. and a Druggist (usual combination in those days) whose grandfather, as you said, was “a pillar of his community” …… versus Amelia who was the daughter of a German immigrant family. Your confusion regarding Nell’s date of birth may only signal that you’re looking at the wrong Rohrdorf family OR that Amelia was NOT a Rohrdorf – not that I know at this point, it just needs to be looked at.
I’m not necessarily saying that an immigrant’s family was poor (particularly when talking about the German immigrants in Texas) but they were more likely not as well off as an established family like the Gregory’s. Just because Edgar was working as a Railroad Clerk doesn’t necessarily mean he didn’t have other, inherited wealth.
…………………..
Bill
Originally posted by Bill Childs
Lack of information equals mysteries……
don’t loose focus….
I’m not being critical of you but you have a certain lack of understanding of what you’re looking for….
Don’t I know it!
Originally posted by Bill Childs
If you have a history of “Blackfoot” and your line came out of Tenn, NC & Va (as this Gregory line does),
The Gregorys started out looking very straightforward and Anglo to me but then the closer I looked, there started to be all these odd things that didn’t add up.
The “Blackfoot” story didn’t come from my grandma’s Gregory line but is from my grandpa’s line — the Wimberleys and Hughes and Jacksons (and Brandon, Meeks, Vaughans, Birds… and the Greens and some other folks you told me about.)
There was also some whispering about a Crow connection in my mother’s childhood but my mother couldn’t recall from whom, and I thought it might have just been a child’s misunderstanding of Cro-atan, meaning mixed-race. But she has a Great memory and has been right so far, so maybe it is Crow somehow.
Also ALL my lines from my mother seem to come out of the Carolinas and VA eventually, with some sidestops in Tenn. And (like a lot of other people have mentioned about their families), I keep seeing the same last names show up in each town. My grandmother and grandfather’s lines, that I thought were totally disconnected even go back to the same towns. (Gregorys are connected to my Moore line but also show up along with All those other folks I listed above.)
Originally posted by Bill Childs
don’t expect everyone in the 1850’s in Texas to “look” native (or anything else), OR for everyone to “look” white in this time frame. Most were very assimilated by then and many certainly would have passed for white…. you’re looking at a number of effects whose “causes” are more remote in time. Ativistic traits (“throw-backs”) occur all too often.
My impression is that my folks assimilated in the mid or early 1700s in VA and NC. When they ‘got religion.’
I’m trying to take my great-grandma’s looks, which were like her mother’s, as more of a hint, not a sign that I’m going to find my native-american heritage right there. I just want to trace them back until I know their ethnicity, where they come from. Their ‘tribe’ whether it’s Occoneechee or Swiss. Or both. And I know they were trying to protect me, their descendent, by hiding who they were from others but don’t want it hidden from me. I just want to know who my family was, whether they were heroes or murderers. Or railroad clerks. 😉
Originally posted by Bill Childs
AND you’re taking this census “data” TOO literally.
Census takers weren’t scientists – they only “knew what they knowed”. They were political appointees – and then you have the problem in Fayette Co Texas where some of the census takers were related to family lines that you have been told were native but these families that the census takers were “recording” were “pillars” of the community….. go figure how accurate that “race” information on that census MIGHT be??? In Texas, AFTER the Civil War!?
This is kind of what i’m suspicious of. And why I get interested in looks — because pictures are the only things that can’t lie. Though it does help to have things like a hospital record that says a certain mother gave birth on a certain date. About the closest thing to certainty. (A headstone in Tennessee apparently doesn’t have my gg-grandfather under it — because he didn’t die during the Civil War, he went off to LA and started a new family! Which only leaves taxes as a certainly.)
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Originally posted by Bill Childs
“If there’s one Indian line there’s another”. A mixed race family’s children had fewer choices. You’re “Tainted” anyway 🙂 these Gregorys passed thru Granville and Person Co., NC in the 1780s!
?? I don’t quite understand this. What happened in Granville and Person Co in the 1780’s?
I found a Robert Gregory, who was listed as a free person of color, about that time in NC. Is that what you’re referring to? (My whole other presumably disconnected Wimberly and Moore lines were around there at the time, too, I believe.)
Originally posted by Bill Childs
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You might be looking at the wrong Rohrdorf family or have misidentifed the wrong Amelia as an Emily……. don’t worry, be happy….. we’ll see about checking that out.
I did try to look into this a lot early on. She called herself Emily later but my mother says her name was really Emelia. And it sounds like she’s called Amelia on the census? That was pretty common then, wasn’t it? It would be Great to check those crazy Rordorfs out (see later in this post about Rohrdorf story) but I’d doubt it will lead to an Indian. (Wouldn’t surprise me to find a Jewish connection who is hiding and passing, though.)
Originally posted by Bill Childs
Looking at all the issues you’ve raised, Nell was Edgar and Amelia’s daughter and Amelia’s parents are “German” on her census listings but I’ve not really looked for them so who knows, maybe they were from NC instead of Germany – I’m not being facetious, just keeping an open mind.
Emily told my mom Germany, but Rordorf is a town in the Swiss Alps and all the Rordorfs I found were from there or Zurich. Still, the Martha Pape I found listed in one source as her mother, may have been born in Texas and shows up in other states much later. There is also a Dorothea or Fredericka Sternberg who is listed on a 1858 marriage roll for Fayette as marrying Ernst or Ernest Rordorf, who another source says is the father of Emily and the other girls.
Originally posted by Bill Childs
Orphans? Doubt it. “Orphan Stories” have too often turned out to be a family fable hiding interracial mixing. (When I challenged my Grandmother’s story that my 3rd-Grt-Grandfather was an “Orphan”, she feshedup that they were mixed-Indian as were many of the interconnecting lines and she knew their names and “about” when all of them were born even – but she was wrong about “where” they were born.)
Yes, I saw that orphan story as kind of a red flag. But I’ll try to remain openminded! 😀
And how come they said Edgar S. was an orphan when his father — and a lot of other family — HAD to still be around town? They lived in La Grange, I think. All the families lived right around there and saw each other.
Originally posted by Bill Childs
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BTW…. many Germans ARE dark complexioned, with high cheek bones and nearly black eyes…. particularly in the South and Southeast – products of the barbarian invasions from Central Europe and Asia over a thousand -1500 years earlier. Far less than 25% of Germans are blue & blonde.
Yes, but are they nappy-headed?
Originally posted by Bill Childs
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The money probably came from the GREGORY side of the family…
The myth of the “poor” Indian in this connection is often just a myth insofar as mixed bloods are concerned, so don’t expect to always find poor injuns.
That wasn’t why I assumed it was Emily’s money.
They had a Lot of kids, that druggist and the ‘doc’ (if he was one — I get the impression doc credentials may not have been looked at too closely back then, especially if one was a ‘pillar,’ because Fayette history records him as Rev., postmaster, AND LAWYER of all things — which is getting to be a bit overachieving, I think — but not Doc, though I believe he did practice medicine.)
Really it was because of another family story! Emilia bragged about her Rordorf family as being VON Rordorfs, which is supposed to mean connections to royalty! Now There’s a story!! Orphaned royalty in Texas. You can see why I didn’t want to touch that one.
(Actually I did dig a bit and there was a royal-connected A. Rordorf who arrived by ship to Texas in 1860 but I don’t know what happened to that Rordorf.
And I’ve also wondered if maybe Emily’s parents had been scam artists — Imposter Rordorfs — who abandoned their kids after fleecing rich, naive immigrants from Germany.
But in any case, I think it likely that one or both of the parents, and the two sisters, died during one of the epidemics of Yellow Fever they were having around then, but that is just a guess because of them all disappearing at once like that.)
Yes, the stories are wild and my imagination has run wilder.
And I wish I could look at the census and marriage records for Fayette (and Austin and Comal counties, if necessary) for some actual facts.
Hana
And Ps. Thank you for caring and helping about this.
The Vaughn name is one of those Border County names that seemed to dance from side to side, back and forth.
They also show up in the records of Northampton Co and Halifax County, NC. I’m not at my computer while posting this so I’ll return later with more info regarding the Vaughn line.
Originally posted by rosebudsaponi
The Vaughn name is one of those Border County names that seemed to dance from side to side, back and forth.
In more ways than one perhaps, like several in my mother’s line. The Vaughans (and Birds) also show up over the VA border in Mecklenberg and a couple border counties.
Btw, I had an minor epiphany! Was trying to figure why, if Sarah actually married Mr. Bird, they would give Zachariah her last name. Well, if I’m assuming he is the NDN connection, then it would make sense as some of our ‘Eastern Blackfoot’ tribes are matrilinear.
H.
Another thing……
In 1830 Wake Co NC census, Stephen Vaughn, Sen’r’s household contained:
1 White male, 60 to 69 yrs old (b.1760’s)
1 White female, 60 to 69 yrs old.
3 FPC males under 10. ****
1 FPC female 10 to 24. ****
1 FPC female 36 to 55. ****
1 male Slave 10 to 24.
1 male Slave 36 to 54.
1 female Slave 25 to 35.
The FPC (Free Persons of Color) designation in this era in the south, was most often used to indentify Indians.
If these were Stephen Vaughn’s children or relatives, that may have been enough to split up the Wimberleys by the 1850/1860 era.
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Bill [/B]
!!! Had an interesting experience related to the above.
Met a distant Wimberley relative online who has been trying to find Z and Q’s parents for 26 years. When I told her my family’s “blackfoot’ indian legend, she went on and on about how she’d never, NEVER, heard of such a thing. I could almost hear her shaking her head over the phone.
She said her father would have been proud of it (hmm) and had never mentioned such a thing to her. She was rather thrown off by this FPC Vaughan info, above, and kept me on the phone to check it herself.
Her idea is that they were unrelated servants, even if the family already had slaves. Then I told her that after my grandpa told my mother about our ancestor, my mother had afterwards overheard townspeople also talking about ‘those Wimberleys’ being a bunch of crazy drunken indians. The online relative murmered, thoughtfully, that Zachariah had been an alcoholic, but then hastily added that he was a wealthy successful man. As if… I don’t know. As if that changed something.
She then checked in with her genealogy cronies and firmly reiterated back to me, that no matter how exact my grandpa’s story, it just couldn’t be.
Is it possible/probable that the FPC folks in the Vaughan household were unrelated servants?
I could see my grandfather inventing an Indian ancestor, just to annoy some relatives… (or to explain his own alcoholism, though he didn’t mention anything about that to my mom) but his story seemed surprisingly specific for that.
Of course,” they” could have been servants. But of course, they “could” have been anything else. “No proof – no pudding.”
There is a similar story of present-day gen-researchers who claim that Thomas Gibson, a.k.a. Wilburn, could not possibly be related to THEIR Wilburns. hehehehehe. Their attitude makes me want to puke – of course – only “intellectually”:)
Bill
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