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Vance,
This is interesting. The story in my family is that they were Cherokee. They moved there at about that time, late 1700s and early 1800s. They lived near the Scioto in Ohio. However, they came there from PA and WVA, so I have doubted the Cherokee.
Tech
yuo are right and he is wrong huge family groups moved that way and into other tribes as pacts between the tribes grew so did relations and intermarrages. so hugfe family grouyps of cherokee all moved at teh same time to areas into Oh all the wway out fo MO way before the TOT then at tthe timeof the TOT cherokee ran and went to live with their relatives in Oh and MO and AR. and that circle going down into AL depending on which cherokee family cgroups were married into the chickasaw or choctaw or shawnee or what tribe. but they all were pretty inter- connected by the TOT. renee
Chwe’n,
My fathers line is Dunn,Parker,Daniel,Hicks,Vaughn,Woodard,Forbes,Chavis,from Northeastern N.C. and Southeastern Va.
My mothers line is Shepherd,Brown,Adkins,Woodhouse,Asbury,from southeast Va.and Northeastern N.C.
Oo-neh
Mike
Joo’-nah-geh’
Naelady —
you said —
yuo are right and he is wrong huge family groups moved that way and into other tribes as pacts between the tribes grew so did relations and intermarrages. so hugfe family grouyps of cherokee all moved at teh same time to areas into Oh all the wway out fo MO way . . .
reply —
All I respectfully ask for is to see that evidence that will verify your comments, as I am deeply involved in researching this topic.
Can you name the specific “huge family groups” in Ohio and Missouri of which you speak, and as I asked before, can you provide documentation/citation for this evidence?
thank you.
Vance
Cindy, you said your ancestors were on the Scioto River? Have you seen those maps about the Indian tribes on the Scioto River before the Greenville Treaty 1794/5?
I have copies if you want to see them.
vance
Vance,
I have seen some, but I do not remember one that placed the Cherokee there. Can you snail mail copies or are they online somewhere that I can see them?
Cindy
You know, Vance, if my Green/Butt family from near Shepherdstown, WVA were Indian or mixed, depending on the definition of large family groups, they moved the entire family from near Martinsburg, WVA to Licking County, OH beginning in the late 1700s and continuing into the early 1800s. They did not go to MO nor did they run to the Cherokee, if indeed they were and I don’t think so, but many went as a large family group on to Iowa. At least one of them did go to Kingfisher, OK later. I even read something on the web site about the history of the Presbyterian Church about the struggle of the church after they left. I do not, however, believe they were Cherokee. I read something that quoted a descendent of a Martinsburg citizen who said there were Tuscorara lodgings there until into the mid-1700s in Martinsburg. Also, I saw something that makes me believe that the Butts might have been Monacan.
Anyway, my point is, if they were Cherokee, they moved to near Columbus in a large family group. The Sinkey/Huston group from PA moved in a family group and joined them in Ohio where they intermarried. I read a book that placed the Cherokee in Dauphin County, PA where this group came from too, but I have never found this information anywhere else.
Techteach
I guess I have to repost what I originally said
===========================
I don’t believe there are any documented Cherokee in Ohio after that date, except perhaps a spouse or individual family that chose to leave the Cherokee Nation.
===========================
please not the last half of that comment — I said —
except perhaps a spouse or individual family that chose to leave the Cherokee Nation.
============================
End of quote. Many Indian families moved and lived with Whites. These forsook traditional ways and were for the most part, 100 percent assimilated into White culture, went to white churches, et cetera.
Of those who traveled descended from non Cherokee Indians, their own tribes were so small they really couldn’t always marry within the tribe.
I have researched much, and have never found a band of Cherokee in Ohio after after 1795, in Missouri after 1811, In Arkansas and Texas it is more murky, as families are found there after the 1846 Arkansas treaty, and after the 1843 Texas treaty. Same with Alabama, Cherokee are on the Tennessee River after the land was ceded — from Decatur to Muscle Shoals, and appear to still be there. I have never found a single Cherokee town in any verifyable historic document in Kentucky, altho there were hunting parties all over the state.
I found one source that I’d like to research further mentioning that Cheorkee outlaws were sometimes forced to leave the Nation and forced to make do, living in the “hunting grounds”, which included Kentucky early on. I’ll post the reference later, as well as the Greenville treaty addendum.
Vance
In 1832 some mixed Negro/Cherokee families moved to Hamilton Co., Indiana, according to William Loren Katz in “The Black West.” however they came from North Hampton County, NC, a place no Cherokee lived.
Pat Elder mentions this migration and says “Although many East Tennessee families went to Indiana in the 1830s, so supporting evidence surfaced showing a similar Cherokee migration.” and “Since Cherokee was a farmiliar term . . . it appears the term became a catchall describing many Appalachian people with Indian ancestry, Cherokee or not.”
There is a more interesting possibility for Scott County, Tn. According to another reference in Ms Elder’s Book, “Melungeons, Examining an Appalachian Legend,” she cites “Reminiscences of Pioneer days in Scott County, Tennessee” from Cumberland Chronicles in Spring 1904. In 1803 when the first European settlers came there, they found Indians living there. She cites another source as saying these Scott Co, Tn Indians were Cherokree outcasts saying “those who did not conform to the standards of the tribe were banished . . .” from Esther Sharp Sanderson in “County Scott [Tennessee] and its Mountain Folk.”
vance
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwsplink.html#anchor2
Please go to the above website, go to the bottom of page 582 and the top of 583.
It speaks of a “Captain Long-Hair” who is a Cherokee who goes to visit the Cherokee on the Scioto River. It says some left immediately for the Cherokee nation ad the rest remained and hunted until harvest time, and then they too would “quit this [the North side] side of the Ohio forever, and return to their own country.”
Vance
Hi vance
welll that was THE statement which I disputted. Tons of the cherokee were in wv and KY and such for documetation go here and list all of the families and how many had cherokee connections and those are just the ones they recorded as such way back . which doesn’t probably cover a 1/4 of the picture.
http://www.shawneetraditions.com/Names.html
if you compile this info into family groups and tribal associations etc etc and look at where these folks actually lborn lived grew up and died. etc etc .
and such you will find how many cherokee and their later family got into ohio and ky and wv etc etc in the first place. then with the TOT many went to live with those relations who had something to share and mos tof them were not in IT . I dont in any way think this makes them less anything. if mos tof fht epeople and the ridge poart alone had to leave IT and nothing about them made them less cherokee . if we want to condemn the ridge part then we will have to condemn all the other nations who had gone just before him and every other nation that moved in the face of white expancsionism as ALLLLLL those tribes sum of 200 yeara t least gave the impression to the white that the indians could be forced to move. and they made sure it continued to happen period.
here in MO in hartville was cherokee in early 1800’s later 1700’s looneys and all of the surnames that we know are cherokee . it just wan’t the tribe. but the rtribe had and continued to not recognize any other treaty or people outside of itself . that didn’t mean anything, cherokee exsisted outside of the “nation” in texas and ar and Mo and oh and wv and Ky . they may have picked up other tribes and other people s along the way but they were still indian groups with their own stuctures and identities.
which makes for some intersting thoughts when you consider how even pohatan went to live with neigboring tribes and such . they were all just clans of people trying to get by. . renee
Which volume on that site, Vance? This is intriguing, given the location of my folks in Ohio and the story of Cherokee in our family. (BTW, I am not criticizing your research. I do not believe they were Cherokee. Stacy sent me a passage from the Heritage database that said a Butt from Martinsburg, WVA, the family that intermarries with both my Greens and Sinkeys and moves with them to the Columbus area, fought in the Revolution’s activity with the Shawnee and was “held as a prisoner with the Mocans in the Shawnee towns” and never seen again. Rather a lot like Monacan, isn’t it?)
What is interesting about the story of Cherokee (BTW, it was Cherokee Blackfoot for two of us. This was the story that both Deb’s side and mine had. We did not know one another until we began researching online together. Still don’t. I expect a trip to Iowa soon. We are planning a getting to know one another picnic.) is that it comes from sides of the family that do not connect as siblings for 4 and 5 generations, going back to Ohio and really, coming through the group that came to Ohio from central PA, the Sinkeys. I have a cousin out west whose line of the family continued marrying as Indian and she is recognized by a Northwest tribe. She also had been told Cherokee.
Cindy
Naelady,
I truly wish I could find documentation — and I have tried VERY hard to do it.
I couldn’t open that shawnee history website. Wish I could have. I’ll try again.
you said —
if you compile this info into family groups and tribal associations etc etc and look at where these folks actually lborn lived grew up and died. etc etc . and such you will find how many cherokee and their later family got into ohio and ky and wv etc etc in the first place.
reply —
Would you be willing to take on this project? I once did and got no where. Please do look up the people in question and do the research, as I have. I know the 2 bigest advocates for Cherokee in Ky are Dan Troxell and Dr Tankersley. Troxell admits his ancestor came from Pennsylvania and married a “Princess Cornblossom” whom the Cherokee say never existed, and will tell you there never were any cherokee princesses, and that Cornlossom is NOT a Cherokee name, as corn doesn’t bloom, and it would sound silly. I personally traced Tankersley’s “Red Bird’s” son (Jessee Brock) to Scott Co., Va next to my ancestor Nevil Wayland Sr. — this was the heart of Melungeon Country, no where near Cherokee country.
I have had trouble DOCUMENTING that any of the isolated groups in Ohio or W Va or Va or even Mo and Ky were Cherokee after the dates I mentioned.
Again, if you have any historic document mentioning that any of these people were Cherokee — I’m all ears. A newspaper article, a document of any reputable kind, anything. That is what I have to go by. If you can get people to write down their family history and stories and show they came from the Cherokee nation, well some isolated families did. I found NO mass migrration of anyhting resembling a “band” of Cherokee. You have no idea how much research I have put into this, how many people I have asked this same question to — literally hundreds.
But if you can find it, great. But such evidence is sorely lacking in Chickamauga groups online who make claims they can’t back up with proof. I’m hopin I can irritate them enough to put out the research rquired to document their claims, cause they haven’t yet.
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on another front —
I saw where you thought Tahchee/Datsi/Totsi/ Captain William Dutch migh have been Sequoyah’s uncle. There might have been a man recorded as “Tarhcee” (probably the same name as Cherokee never end a syllable with a consonate sound) in an earlier generation who very well might have been an uncle. I have heard of him, but I am not certain he existed, and he definitely was not Capt Dutch, Old settler Chief that I was talking about — he is mentiond here —
http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/HistoryPage.asp?ID=192
—
where it says —
Sequoyah also had at least two brothers; one was named Tobacco Will who was a blacksmith in Arkansas and also a signer of the Cherokee Constitution. The Old Settler Chief, Dutch (U-ge-we-le-dv), was another brother.
— end of quote.
Chief Tahchee was often living with the Texas Cherokee, he raided Comanche villages for horses, and Texas towns as well for the same. His actions in fact might have been partially responsible for Texan’s attacking the Cherokee and massacreing many.
Tahchee often lived along Red River and was very possible very close to where I live right now, as his signature (along with David Melton’s) is on a treaty that was signed about 15 miles North of my home town. The Melton’s are related to Doublehead (who lived in N Alabama), and Doublehead was Sequoyah’s Uncle. Melton’s Bluff in N Alabama on the Tennessee River is named after this family.
Tahchee died in the Canadian district of the Cherokee Nation where he lived. one day when older he went to get on his horse, and it spooked and kicked him in the head and killed him. This was in the 1840s or thereabout. “Dutchess Creek” near the Arkansas River in the Souhtern Cherokee Nation was named after him. This is recorded in “Captain Dutch” by Robert Conley. He was the last TRUE traditional Cherokee Red (war) chief. Stand Waite was never a War chief in the traditional sense.
hope this is helpful.
vance
Cindy.
go here
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwsplink.html#anchor2
then to Indian affairs, vol. 1. click on “turn to page” and enter 582. Go to the bottom of the page and hte top of the next page.
sorry I thought I had entered it.
vance
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