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Greetings from a new member.
I am another with legends of Cherokee and Blackfoot in my paternal lines, Cherokee in my maternal – mystery ancestors and Melungeon traits.
My main paternal line is Rice from KY/VA. I can trace this line to John Rice b.1786 VA who was apparently the son of a John Rice of VA – and I have seen the gamut of stories to this line – but it remains unfounded and unproven.
John Rice b.1786 VA married a Nancy Davis b. around the same time. Nancy Davis’ father is said to be John Davis and while some people think they have him pegged, I am not so sure.
John and sister Fanny (Francis) and brother Martin and half-brother Samuel left VA after 1810 for Floyd Co., KY along with John’s wife Nancy who he married in 1808. They had a son Samuel Rice ca 1808-1813 KY who mrrd Sarah Bayes and later Jane Patrick. Samuel and Sarah had a son Martin Van Buren Rice
b.1838 who mrrd a Nancy Whitaker b. 1842. Nancy is the first “full-blood of legend” in this line – altho she is found in census and it appears her father was Mark Whitaker b. 1819 KY – but her mother was apparently Mark’s first wife and nothing is known of her except the story passed down with the curious line “My dad was a slave to my mother” given by their son, Bascom Rice b.1868 KY – who has dark features and who married Frankie Fletcher b. 1867 KY apparently to Simon/Simeon/Silas Fletcher and Polly Adams b. 1827 in Pert Creek, KY. Polly is the 2nd reported full-blood in this line – this was all told to my eldest aunt who was raised in her early years by Bascom and Franka. They had a son Luther Rice b.1900 KY who mrrd. Mary Gibbs b. 1906 KY. To my knowledge, there is no rumor of Mary being ndn. Their son, Joseph Rice (1927-1963) was my father – who mrrd. Bettie Susan Conley of KY. Bettie’s great-grandmother was Francis “Fannie” Self – who was mrrd. to Beverly Dickenson. Both Fannie and Beverly were b. VA – Fannie being born ca. 1824. Fannie is said to have been full-blood Cherokee and no mention of “Blackfoot” or anything else. The Self family claims no ndn-blood (what’s new) and can only place Fanny with one Self family – the legend is … that Nuns placed her as a teenager with a family to save her from the Trail of Tears.
I should note that I was taken from my family and adopted – somewhat illegally – in 1954 and only found my blood family Christmas 2003 – and have only had these legends a few years.
All of these lines can be explored further at my gensite http://www.tribalpages.com – and enter the word “dogg” in the user-ID block.
I do not have all of my paper with me – I’m in Oregon and it is in Ohio – but will try and help with all questions …. and hot-doggity, have some of my own to ask in time. Doheye (Peace)
Hello Dan….nice to see you here and posting abt your lines…your line of Fletcher’s appear to cross mine in as much as Frankie’s siblings: George, Elizabeth & William Riley Fletcher are part of my allied tree. I truly have not followed this line extensively as of yet but have been in recent contact with a gal who descends from the Wm. Riley Fletcher line….via his son Bruner. I can certainly put you in touch with her if you wish…her name is Frances and she too “does genealogy” but not alot of it online. Also wanted to say a big CONGRATS on locating your birth family…how wonderful for you! At any rate…feel free to email me if you wish to communicate further about your Fletcher line….also…lest I forget…I also have a few Rice folks in my tree…my “Rice mystery” is a gal named Elizabeth “Lizzie” Rice (b: 1885 KY, d: 12 Nov 1969 OH) who MD into my Gibson line: Starling Gibson being her husband. … hsi parents were James Robert “Jim” Gibson & Mary Elizabeth nee Trusty….and Jim’s folks were Squire Gibson & Nancy nee Harmon…and on up to Bryson Gibson & Frances “Fannie” nee Green…which is my direct maternal Gibson line. In my tree, as it goes, the Rice’s appear to have been in Ky and then moved into OH. Again…welcome….and take care until next~~~Laurie
Laurie, thank you for your welcome and response.
I can begin by telling you that I have Lizzie Rice born 1885 on the Burning Fork of the Licking River as the daughter of my great-grandfather, Bascom’s, brother – Alexander Rice -(son of Martin Van Buren Rice and Nancy Whitaker) and his wife Margaret Pace. I do not have any other info on her at this time. Alexander is listed in one census (1880?) as “Alcaney”. Don’t know why. I have a picture of him on my gensite and you can copy it there or I can e-mail it to you if you wish. I must also mention that I do e-mail with another descendent of Alexander’s (and Margaret’s).
I have been involved with a Fletcher site – being from Miles’ line I believe – another brother to the ones we mention. In fact, it was this person who helped me find my blood aunts – who my brother and sisters had been estranged from after a move to OK many years before. I have also never seen proof that Frankie was born to Simon and Polly. However, in like fashion, I believe I can put you in touch with a “MyFamily” Fletcher site with ties also to the Marshall and Risner families.
The Rice family was on Burning Fork beginning at least with Samuel and Sarah Bayes Rice ca1830’s and lived there until at least 1908 probably – when ggrandpa Bascom left and moved to Johnson County.
It is indeed my pleasure to make your e-quaintance and to speak with a new cousin. Let me get settled in a little more, brush up on my Sioux (all dozen words) and we’ll see what we can get done.
Pilamaya (peace to you -or- ’til we meet again) Weashanea (Be well)
Dano
Two of those names sound familiar to me.
Can you tell me more about Mark Whitaker? I believe my g-grandma’s dad was a Mark Whitaker around Williamson County, IL.
The other name is Self. I found a number of them in Bledsoe County, TN near my Riddles (and others known to have connections to Hawkins County, TN).
BLEDSOE COUNTY, TN 1815 TAX LIST ALPHABETICALLY ARRANGED to delay enactment of the land law during the War between Great Britain
Riddle, Thomas
Riddle, William
Rodgers, Ruben
Rodgers, William
Rogers, Amanuel
Rogers, Dauswell
Rogers, Jeremiah
Rogers, Jesse
Rogers, John
Rogers, Joseph
Gibson, Jacob [2]
Blevins, Stephen
Boling, Lewis
Self, Hezekiah
Self, Jesse
Self, Levy
Self, Spencer
Hello Rockhound!
My mother so ingrained in my siblings the Fannie Self story – but I only have her born VA – late of Wise Co – and surveying 100 acres in Morgan County KY while her husband was either incarcerated or temporary CSA and then they lived in another county. I may have her on the Guion roll as an applicant but not approved – but that fannie was of the GA tribe with the note (ADM). There was another Fannie Self in a similar time period in … I think … Alabama.
This Mark Whitaker was born 1819 Floyd Co., KY. I show him as the son of Francis Asbury Whitaker b. 1796 in Tennessee married to a Margaret ??. I have seen either other Mark Whitakers of the same birthyear or with a different father. This Mark Whitaker and his 2nd wife – Martha “Patsy” Whitaker are generally known as the progenitors. I think he may have been a circuit riding preacher … but I would have to say that what I have can be considered “murky”.
I have a Minnie Blevins as my great-great grandmother and she was married to Frank Gibbs – their daugh. Mary mrrd Luther Rice. I tried to take this line to the Sizemores but could not – however, I ran into someone a week or so ago who had her great-grandfather Elisha as the son of someone else – and it’s a thing I have to check out further. It is said she was 100% Irish but the only pic I have of her shows her in an “Indian” style garment (decoration wise) and with what appear to be high-cheekbones and an “interesting” nose. In this line, there are Meades and LeMasters and Tacketts marrying in.
I don’t think I have the other surnames you list although I did have a friend named Riddle in college at Cincinnati decades ago.
I don’t know if Fannie Self was around TN or not – being a mystery and all – but her info says born VA and I know she was in KY = Beverly and Fannie had daugh Elizabeth “Betty” Dickenson b.1850 who mrrd Howard Gilliam (b.1847) – they had Bessie Mae Gilliam and she mrrd David Ezekiel Conley – who may have had a few families (was an itinerant preacher) – they had 14 kids and I have spoken with one, my aunt Fanny (named after the original Fanny) – and the story of Cherokee persists. I can say that Fannie’s daughters appear to have Indian traits in a pic I have seen of two of them at an older age. Not sure if I still have that pic available.
I will be interested in your Self info soon – and perhaps also the Blevins info.
Thanks again for your input Rockhound. Hope we can help each other,
Doheye (Peace),
Dan
Dan,
Just wanted to point out thet the MHA (Melungeon Heritage Association) has issued a statement that there are no Melungeon traits, and that Kennedy’s statements about it being so were far from the “truth” that people have grabbed onto since it was written in his book. The big “Shovel Tooth” debate here on this forum is one that people are still grabbing ahold of which holds no truth what-so-ever of being indicative only to Asians and Amerindians, thusly to Melungeons.
Were there Melungeons? Yes, but not to the extent that Kennedy and his theorists claim. There were around 15 to maybe 20 original Tri-Racial Isolates/The real Melungeons. Certainly not enough people to encompass such a large variety of surnames.
Not worth fighting over as the truth behind the story is coming out slowly debunking much of what is said by the Melungeon theorists, who use “Cut and Paste” of unknown articles and writings as proof. No records have ever surfaced proving their theories, and I suspect none ever will.
I also am a direct descendant of William Adkins, Parker Adkins and Bluesky Cornstalk. The family was heavily native, Shawnee for the most part. I have loads of Adkins cousins, one living between here and Sabina, who all look native. There was a strong amount of intermarrying in the line between 1850 and 1900. Every one married a cousin, all either Adkins or the child of an Adkins, all tracing back to Littleberry, s/o Parker Adkins and Bluesky Cornstalk a.k.a. Mary, or to Parker’s sister Mary Adkins/Harley, thus to William Adkins and Elizabeth Parker. William and/or Elizabeth may have had ties to either the Shawnee or Powhatan. I am digging up clues on this that no one else, for the most part, have seen. Strong evidence that supports my thoughts on this.
My research of Wayne County W.V. also shows that alot of the people there had a strong Shawnee connection. Alot said to be Melungeon show to be descended from the Shawnee and married into most of my ancestral families from down there. The Steel/Steele/Casteel family for example are the same ones from the Wayne/Cabell areas that are said to be Melungeon on most sites and books. Highly incorrect, married into my family lines, and descended from Shawnee. Same with Adkins being listed, my research is showing them to be most likely from Powhatan or a splinter-group of an Algonquin speaking tribe living along the James/Powhatan river, or this was through the Parker line. All this before the Shawnee thing came about in the family. Certain “key” evidence has been overlooked by the “nay-saying” authors that involve more study.
One book was read by my second cousin about the Adkins/Parker family, and when he finished reading it all, he put the book down and called it “Garbage”. About half of the book was correct, the rest was incorrect. I believe there are around 3 or 4 books on the family, all “questionable” according to my family and other researchers I am in contact with.
Looking at the area between 1850 and 1900, I have found two strong names known to be of connection to the Shawnee, Blue and Keyser/Kiser. I have yet to trace the Keyser/Kiser names listed, but have traced the Blue line, the mother of one individual in Wayne County married into the Davis family, who may or may not be related to my ancestress from a different line from the, and it traces back to the Shawnee Blue line. This person in Wayne Co. had familyand descendants who married into two other Wayne Co. families that trace back to the Shawnee and also married into my/our Adkins line.
This is not an easy job however as the male Adkins marriages was over 400 total names to trace. Nothing found regarding Turkish, Moorish, Portuguese, or whatever else is the flavor of the month concerning Melungeons. What I am finding is Shawnee with a hint of Powhatan here and there.
My wife is a Bowling/Caudill descendant, and her uncle has spent more years than I care to count researching the family. My wife is a descendnat of Pocahontas, and has ties to Cherokee and Shawnee (Aracoma Cornstalk and Bowling Baker). Nothing found in that line Melungeon either, however her family ancestors are talked about as being so everywhere online and in books.
Anti-Melungeon? No I am Anti-Theory as a basis for genealogy. I’ve been hated and even recently had my life threatened via eMail for this…not that I am concerned because I am a hard guy to track down. But I am only out to show the truth that so many are blindly falling for. If it is too good to be true, it most likely isn’t true. I am a nice guy really, but things are just so out of hand anymore regarding this whole Melungeon thing, and involving my family, that I fell it is necessary to spread the truth on the subject. My opinion means little, so I use hard facts when it comes to ancestry.
One can debate my opinion, but it is hard to debate the facts in other words.
Steve
Well, quite a thing to try popping my eyes open to without even my first cup yet.
Just for the record, my particular Adkins line has no Parkers in it – nor does it have ndn-claims although some off-shoots relate to the Coles who do have such claims. I have been involved in a large study of the Adkins families – and they are all in total disarray – every one of them has totally lost members once the 1700’s are hit – and with all the cousin-inter-marriages … or not … anybody who has their Adkins’ in a row is extremely lucky so, congratulations. Many of my fellow researchers do have the Parkers running thru.
Having known several people of the Shawnee persuasion, there are some really strong traits that would seem recognizeable feature-wise – traits that they and former rival-Cherokee do not share. In the same vein, the Cherokee have a few that are also very recognizeable – but one must wait many years to watch the process. There are no rumors of Shawnee coming from my relatives. There are no Ohio-roots in my lines. Heck, very few of them ever even made it to Ohio until late in the 20th century. As you know, the Shawnee made side-trips into the Cumberland area but did not settle there.
Now, with regard to what you say on the Melungeon situation. Are you saying that Dutch/ROM/Turkish/Portugese/North African people didn’t somehow make it into the Carolinas in the 15th century or before – and that the Cherokee didn’t somehow migrate from Turkey – and that 17th century white-man didn’t run into groups of notwhite/notblack/notndn people practicing different things than the locals? Just want to be sure of what you’re saying ain’t so.
And yes Steve-O, in three years, you are the first I’ve seen driving at de-bunking the Melungeon trait issue – so, please understand that I will need a little more time to review sources as I’d never really gone either way with it and was/am still in the process of studying it.
Thanks for your input (dream-shaker!);)
Incidentally, one of my grandfather’s sisters married a Caudill (Rouie I believe was the sister, Jessie was the Caudill)
Oh, and no offense to anybody – but I would take more pride in being Sioux or any nDn than any of the other races tossed into the Melungeon mix. I am probably proudest of my Welsh roots … which happen to be one that may instead be this “Melungeon” … and why does the surname list keep growing regarding them?
Hope you catch this edit/add-on Steve. Even as I wrote it, I realized, I have NO sources other than what I’ve read online to the pro-side … and only yours on the nay-side – so, I welcome further input.
And please do not think I have some great knowledge of the Shawnee … shoot, in Ohio, most don’t even know that Kentucky owns some land on the Buckeye-side of the Ohio River … won in the Civil War. Yet, every Kentucky school-child learns of this! And learning of their heritage was never a biggie for my Ohio – not of their ndn heritage anyway.
Laurie – as I mentioned in PM, I just got this in from my cousin – and I’m not sure what to think now as I think she is the one I got my original info from:
“
Hey Dan
How have you been! Yes,my grandmother was/is Lizzie Perkins Rice but her parents were Wiley B. and Sarah Adams Perkins. My grandfather(Lizzie’s husband)parents were Alex and Margaret Pace Rice. I think that is where the confusion is coming in. If you can get the supposed cousin e-mail addy send it to me or give them mine. Thanks bud!
Cousin Kim”
I’ll get on this as soon as I can – but I’m seeing a whole train-load of new information on this site that I haven’t seen before – and need to soak it all in. Great site, eh?
Good morning Dan….thank you for the PM’s and to for postign here….so is this cousin of your’s (Kim) saying that the Elizabeth “Lizzie” Rice that MD Starling Gibson was actually first a Perkins?….and MD a Rice and thus used that name when she MD Starling in 1905? Sorry to seem so daft….just trying to sort thru who is whom here…thanks again…take care~~~Laurie
Laurie, I know what she is saying – I just don’t know where it applies at this juncture. As I say – I have much to learn here and am beginning to feel overwhelmed and waaaaay under-informed. You know I’ll be back with you on it – I just need to sort things. Dan
I noticed you have William Adkins and Elizabeth Parker on your chart on your “Tribal Pages” area, so I suppose it threw me I guess…
To answer your question about the whole “what I am saying bit”…
In a word…Yes…
That is what I am saying. However I should point out that I think perhaps your coffee hadn’t kicked in yet because you are pushing the dates back 100 more years, as the 15th century was the 1400’s, and the 17th century was the 1600’s. Or perhaps somewhere online you read this. But if you did read it online, it shows that before too long the theorists will have the dates going back to pre-Columbian times. Ha Ha
On the whole Cherokee/Turk thing…I am guessing you are talking about the whole dress/turban issue. The Cherokee I have talked to, and some researchers as well who also talked to Cherokee, have stated that there is nothing to the whole “turban” thing. A coincidence maybe, but they were not the same things.
In regards to your “add-on/edit”…What you find online and in the books are far from anything being “concrete evidence”. I am not out to debunk the whole “trait” thing as the MHA has already done that fairly well and stated there is nothing really at all as it being indicative of Melungeon, aside from the mis-information that only Asian and Amerindian have “Shovel Teeth”, which again I have found from a Oral Hygienist and a dentist so far as not being the case at all, as well as a friend of mine with proven Ukranian/European ancestry as having shovel teeth on the top row and not the bottom.
And the MHA stating FPC and Mulatto could mean Melungeon, which to me is an hilarious statement given that people would have known the difference regardless of the whole “In the eye of the beholder” bit.
http://melungeon.org/index.cgi?&CONTEXT=cat&cat=10077
Hi Dan,
Welcome, you found a great and supportive spot to do your research. Folks here are so experienced and kind!
Steve-O – thank you again for the way you proceed. I so appreciate your digging deeper re: Elizabeth Parker and Hannah Love. I am still celebrating the gift you gave me and my family with our mutual links to them, May the nay sayers and hostiles blow right past you like the wind.
Janette
Hi Steve-O and Hello Janette.
Steve, there was a time when my Tribal Pages site had just a little info on it. Now, I keep getting involved in surname after surname and there are thousands of entries (I suppose) on my site. Many have not been checked out and are the result of research “teams” I have been in on … but my Adkins was two people to start with – a Howard Adkins and a Mary Coleman. I’m more confused on them than ever even with different people writing on concrete.
The “Turban” thing was not in my head when I wrote. What was in my head was that I’d just read a couple of days ago that Turkish people have always claimed the Native American came from there … about 1000 years ago … and that some language similarities existed.
When I referred to the 17th century, Steve-O, I’m using the timeline of their discovery by White British – not their arrival in the Americas. Again, the reading on this was supplied by pro-Melungeon theorists.
I so appreciate your input on this. Can’t wait ’til I ask y’all which DNA test I should have. I’ll save that one for a slow day.
techteach wrote: Dan,
Do a search for DNA. You will find discussions that explain it.
Techteach
Palamayeye TechTeach. I see a bit of reading ahead of me. Good time to maybe ask – are there many members who have taken DNA tests for the cause – and should there be a “data-base-reference” at this site?
Thanks again.
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