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I’ll enlighten you on the whole “Allah Bahma/Bamya” thing shortly. Only thing “Spacey” about it is Kennedy’s concept.
Hello Tom – thanks for the great overview! I used to be much more active in the material-side … but somehow fell back into the “real” world after a divorce nearly two decades ago. I prefer where I was – but have recently started lacing and sewing again. Don’t really plan to start brain-tanning again – no place for frames and/or flies. I did find your “moosehide/berry pounding” post interesting. Of course, now I have moved to where there ain’t no moose! Sure do miss having an elkhide or two around to make outfits … but have to wonder how they’d work out here in the humid northwest. You also look familiar – if you’ve ever been involved in geophysics/seismic, holler (in the states).
Anyhow, as I age, I find my interests more in the historical avenues – trying to lift the veils on what was … and what is said that was – but in Truth, I am still where I started – trying to find my Indian and to hear what he is whispering — except of late (3+ yrs) I have names where before, I had only the whisperings.
Thanks again Tom – look forward to more “doin’s” with you. Dano
Steve-o wrote: I’ll enlighten you on the whole “Allah Bahma/Bamya” thing shortly. Only thing “Spacey” about it is Kennedy’s concept.
Oh … so it’s a real thing? Sorry – thought it was a humorous reference.
Hey, y’know whut? They’ve got an OSU out here too … but I don’t have any idea what it stands for here. Go Bucks! Go Wildcats! And maybe, when Ohio finally goes Tribal, someone can get the name changed to “The Buckskins”! instead of the Buckeyes.
Oh, it is “really” out there, online and in concept…a Kennedy concoction none-the-less.
Here are some of his “alleged” Turkish origin words and their meanings…
1. Allegheny — Allah genis — God’s vastness
2. Alabama — Allah Bamya — God’s graveyard
3. Appalachian — Apa-la-che — widespread/multitude
4. Shawnee — sah ne — great shah, or great king
5. Shenandoah — sen doga (pronounced “shen-doah”) — happy natural setting
6. Shindig — sen lik (pronounced “shen-lick”) — happy party
7. Krill (Appalachian term for a sprain or twisting of the ankle) — kiril — to twist or break.
Now here is the real deal…
Allegheny – Anglocized Delaware word meaning “most beautiful stream”
Welhic – “most beautiful” heny – “stream”. Welhic-heny or Allegheny.
Alabama- Most likely Choctaw in origin, meaning “Thicket Cleaners”
Appalachian – Spanish origin, possibly from DeSoto who may have mistaken the natives in the area for the Appalachee tribe in Florida.
Shenandoah –
“The name appears in books of Indian etymology as Schin-han-dowi, the River-Through-The Spruce, (but spruces are rare in those mountains), or On-an-da-goa, the River-of-High Mountains, or as Silver-Water. The Museum of the American Indian in New York City believes that it is a word of Iroquois origin meaning Big Meadow. Or it might come from the fallen chief, Sherando, or from the earlier exterminated tribe, Senedos.”
Shindig – Shindy was a word for “commotion”, to “cut a shindy” meant to raise a ruckus. 1859 Americanism dictionaries list Shindig as a blow to the shins, which was said to occur at these rowdy parties during all the dancing.
Krill – I have never heard that term used in my family, we always used “sprain” or “break” in the family. New word to me.
Shawnee – Well I believe the Shawnee were descendants of the Ft. Ancient culture. The Ft. Ancients disappeared right when the Shawnee appeared. Archealogists are coming to the same conclusions as well.
However there are some who have another theory that the Shawnee were Hebrew in origin. Supposidly the “Shaw” part of the word was a word that described “The Tribe of Shem” in the Bible, then adding the ever popular genalogical term “Nee” at the end meaning “by blood”. I do not take stock in this theory either.
Of course words in the English language can be compared to words from other countries, as alot of words did come from other countries originally, usually a varient however. But one can also easily take any word, like those beginning with Sha or Shaw and give it a Middle-Eastern twist to make it around to fit any kind of theory. Shah of Iran, Shawshank Redemption, Shasta, etc. could in someones twisted view be evidence of even more Turkish origins. Sounds silly, yes, but so does this whole Kennedy theory presented here.
Thank you Steve – this looks very much like what I was reading right before joining this forum. I must say, I was a touch excited at another theory saying Roms were the culprit as well. I’m about as gypsy as it gets – – uh, not in blood but in romantic leanings toward travel and nomadmanship.
But what I’m really after is government cheese. Only the Indians can get that anymore. (sheepish grin).
Ha Ha! That stuff tastes good doesn’t it? Years and years ago someone in the community I grew up in used to get ahold of that stuff and sell it. Mom would buy it every now and then. We never were on welfare, so it was the only way we got ahold of it. I actually preferred it over Velveeta. Ha Ha
New info Re: Polly (Adams) Fletcher, mother of Frankie Fletcher Rice, my ggma.
So, I’m looking – walking and looking for my Truth – for the Truth of my ancestors – getting my stories way late when the people telling them are up there in years – and I keep getting new information … put a different way … and my simple brain wants to start barking – but thought I’d share this little tidbit just the way it came in – and it’s something I tried and tried to get the story on before – but the story kept eluding me. Now, I got something interesting going on:
This just came in from a relative regarding the parentage of my great-gramma:
Now, how do I figure this out? Black Slave? Red Slave? Green Slave? Frankie was born in 1868 – supposed to be NO slaves then.
” … all I know about my family is what my Dad told me and it was all about his family on his mothers sideall he told me was that she was the daughter of an Indian woman who owned slaves andone of her slaves fathered my grandmother Frankie and her brother Miles
but he never said anything about other brothers or sisters”
danricecote wrote: New info Re: Polly (Adams) Fletcher, mother of Frankie Fletcher Rice, my ggma.
So, I’m looking – walking and looking for my Truth – for the Truth of my ancestors – getting my stories way late when the people telling them are up there in years – and I keep getting new information … put a different way … and my simple brain wants to start barking – but thought I’d share this little tidbit just the way it came in – and it’s something I tried and tried to get the story on before – but the story kept eluding me. Now, I got something interesting going on:
This just came in from a relative regarding the parentage of my great-gramma:
Now, how do I figure this out? Black Slave? Red Slave? Green Slave? Frankie was born in 1868 – supposed to be NO slaves then.
” … all I know about my family is what my Dad told me and it was all about his family on his mothers sideall he told me was that she was the daughter of an Indian woman who owned slaves andone of her slaves fathered my grandmother Frankie and her brother Miles
but he never said anything about other brothers or sisters”
And the story gets better … they were said to be White Slaves.
Get a quick read at: http://archive.salon.com/books/it/2000/06/15/white_slaves/
Dan; Greetings! I would like to hear of your oral traditions concerning the American Indian ancestry of your Rice family. Would you please give me the details? I will reply afterwards with my Rice family ancestry.
Thank you!
Dan.
Seyo Dan;
You’ve come to the right place – this thread is about my oral traditions – However, I will try and line them up in a row here for you.
First – the Qualifier: I’ve only known of the oral traditions for 3 1/2 yrs – didn’t know my blood family until them.
Brothers and sisters were estranged from the aunts & uncles and so, mostly had only:
our mother’s differing reports of Cherokee, Shawnee, Apache, Shoshonean, Pawnee – depending on which story they’d heard. The major story on my mother’s side is her great-grandmother – named: Fanny Self -aka- Frances Elizabeth Self of VA b.ca1824 m. Beverly Dickenson … They believe she was/is full Cherokee and the story goes that she was a teenager in VA when Nuns placed her with a white family to save her from “The Trail”. No proof and some argument over the little bit of proof there might be that she was even a Self or even in VA.
The story on my father’s side gets spacey: My gggrandmother Nancy Whitaker b.1842 KY (m. Martin VanBuren Rice) was said to have been full-blood by my great-grandfather – who told my aunt. At the same time – his wife, Franka Fletcher (Frankie, Frankey) – her mother is said to have been an “Indian Woman who owned white slaves” – and that my great-grandmother and one brother are said to have been fathered by one of these white-slaves … which I assume means not by Frankies listed father, Simon Fletcher and his wife (The “Indian Woman”) would have been Mary Polly Adams of Ivyton, Magoffin Co., KY>
I’m seriously starting to wonder if my gX4 grandfather doesn’t have those leanings as well – I have no pics past my great grandpa – he was born “near Roanoke” and his dad’s origins, though heavily reported as English – from a Boat – in 1779 – there’s been no proof of any kind.
This brings in again what the kids remember being told and what I have been told – Cherokee, Blackfoot on my father’s side.
– Cherokee, Apache, Shawnee, Pawnee, Shoshone on my mother’s … (not all of them – just different ones to different sibs).
That’s the stories as I know them.
Here is a quick (?) breakdown of my direct Rice-line;
Father: Joseph Rice (1927-1963) m. Bettie Susan Conley (Conley/Gilliam)
Grandfather: Luther Rice (1900-1968) m. Mary Gibbs (Gibbs/Blevins)
GGrandfather: Bascom Rice (1865-1936) maybe “Henry” Bascom Rice
m. Franka Fletcher (Adams/?Fletcher?)
GGGrandfather: Martin Van Buren Rice (1838-1920) m. Nancy Whitaker (Whitaker?/ ??)
GGGGRandfather: Samuel Rice (1808-1813 – 1886?) m. Sarah Bayes (later, Jane Patrick)
GGGGGrandfather: John Rice (1786 near Roanoke – ?) mrrd. Nancy Davis
Much conjecture on his father. Other researchers show birthdates around 1760 England. I don’t buy it. One legend says he (John Sr) was “killed by Indians” while his son (my John) saved the others by playing fiddle. However, research indicates it was another John Rice … from Carswell NC – who was killed in the “attack”. My “proven” John brought his wife, his full brother (Martin) and Sister (Fanny or Elizabeth) and half-brother Samuel to KY after 1910 but before 1815 – to Floyd Co KY – and that part later becoming Magoffin Co., KY – From Samuel (my Samuel) on, they are listed as living on the Burning Fork Branch of the Licking River and also as members of “The Rices of Ivyton”. Bascom moved to Johnson County in 1908 and by my birth, the family was in or near Ashland, Boyd Co. KY
Dan; My 5th great grandfather, Benjamin Green (born 1767), is said to have married Mary Rice daughter of John Rice. John Rice purchased land on the Clinch River around Kyle’s Ferry on the border of present Hawkins and Hancock counties in TN. This is where Ben and Mary Green lived in 1792 (next to the Indian, Micajah Bunch). In 1800 they removed to Henry County, KY. In 1833 Ben Green (his wife being dead) moved to Boone County, MO.
My John Rice arrived in old Hawkins County, TN from the Elk Creek community on the New River (he may have had something to do with the Tory gang of the Indian, William Riddle). Before that he was located in the Longhunter community (Wallins, Blevins, Roberts, Etc.) on the Smith River (headwaters of the Roanoke) in present Henry County, VA. It appears he was a member of the old Halifax Militia in the 1750’s (that included the present area of Henry County, VA) that met with the Cherokee war party after the militia assembled at Gobling Town. This militia was paid for furnishing supplies to Indians during this time. Isaac Rice, brother of my John Rice, is said to have married a descendant of Elisha Wallin Sr.
In 1805 my John Rice, his sons and some son-in-laws moved to Post Oak Springs just southwest of the Cherokee agency at Southwest Point in TN. This became the new Nashville Road. Their neighbor was Chief Tahlonteskee. Isaac Rice, son of my John Rice, removed to McMinn County, TN and his line married into the family of Madison Hawk, a descendant of Chief John Walker’s sister. This Isaac Rice was on the board with Chief Walker to establish the county seat of Athens in McMinn County, TN. Our Rice family produced the name for Riceville in present McMinn County, TN.
That’s how that part of the story goes.
Dan.
Osiyo Edudu;
Thank you for your information. I see similarities that seem intriguing.
The first being the mentioning of John. Second being a point of departure from “near Roanoke”. Third being the name Isaac – which does come into my lines … as does the name “Green” in the later 1800’s with a cousin-line having a Greenville so I sense some tie just thru the given names – there is also the mention of Blevins.
There is also the Riceville, KY – so named after the family of MY John due mainly to his ownership of large quantities of land.
I have a “cousin” who has spent many years working Rice lines – I would like to have her see your info … she will be able to tell me (probably) how to interpret this. She has long held the idea that John before John was already here in North America – and had been for a least a generation or two.
Sgi/Wado,
Dan
Dan Akin wrote: Dan; My 5th great grandfather, Benjamin Green (born 1767), is said to have married Mary Rice daughter of John Rice. John Rice purchased land on the Clinch River around Kyle’s Ferry on the border of present Hawkins and Hancock counties in TN. This is where Ben and Mary Green lived in 1792 (next to the Indian, Micajah Bunch). In 1800 they removed to Henry County, KY. In 1833 Ben Green (his wife being dead) moved to Boone County, MO.
My John Rice arrived in old Hawkins County, TN from the Elk Creek community on the New River (he may have had something to do with the Tory gang of the Indian, William Riddle). Before that he was located in the Longhunter community (Wallins, Blevins, Roberts, Etc.) on the Smith River (headwaters of the Roanoke) in present Henry County, VA. It appears he was a member of the old Halifax Militia in the 1750’s (that included the present area of Henry County, VA) that met with the Cherokee war party after the militia assembled at Gobling Town. This militia was paid for furnishing supplies to Indians during this time. Isaac Rice, brother of my John Rice, is said to have married a descendant of Elisha Wallin Sr.
In 1805 my John Rice, his sons and some son-in-laws moved to Post Oak Springs just southwest of the Cherokee agency at Southwest Point in TN. This became the new Nashville Road. Their neighbor was Chief Tahlonteskee. Isaac Rice, son of my John Rice, removed to McMinn County, TN and his line married into the family of Madison Hawk, a descendant of Chief John Walker’s sister. This Isaac Rice was on the board with Chief Walker to establish the county seat of Athens in McMinn County, TN. Our Rice family produced the name for Riceville in present McMinn County, TN.
That’s how that part of the story goes.
Dan.
Dan; this is the response I received from my “cousin”. Would appreciate any comment you might have as it hints at a family tie between us and presents some history that you and/or your family might have a clearer record of. Thanks. Dan
“This is the John Rice who was killed by Indians (I believe it was very early 1797) and he was buried at the mouth of the Red River. I can’t quote you the printed source, but I have a copy of it somewhere. Our John Rice married Sally Johnston (believed to be second wife) – in Washington, VA in summer of 1797 – these two John Rice’s CAN’T BE the same person. The preponderance of the evidence places Washington County VA John Rice in that county with who I believe was his son John Rice (married Nancy Davis) in 1810 ( I believe that was the last year they were there. There was also a Davis female in her own household whom I believe to be Nancy’s mother. Nancy’s father had died ca 1806. The John Rice who was buried at the mouth of the Red River COULD HAVE BEEN the GRANDFATHER of the John Rice who married Nancy Davis. The John Rice who married Nancy Davis is believed by every researcher I know to be a half-brother of Samuel Rice who settled in Floyd KY.
If this EARLIEST John Rice was killed by Indians, I doubt seriously that he had Indian heritage!!!”
I would like to respond to the statement of an Indian killing John Rice. I don’t know if this is true, but many Indians were fierce enemies. Also, many Indians and whites lived among each other and were friends. If John rice was living among Indians and whites I find it very possible that another Indian would kill him. I think too many people look at things as black or white with no in between. Some of this is due to ignorance. I see a lot of postings stating that someone is not NA because they’re listed as Mulatto or Black or White. Indians were’nt listed on census until the late 1800’s as being Indian, unless living on a reservation and included on that roll. That’s what makes us so difficult to trace.
A great book for reference is “Blood and Thunder” by Hampton Sides. He writes about how the Navajo were enemies with the Taos Pueblo. Thanks.
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