- This topic has 13 voices and 85 replies.
-
Posts
-
Brenda, I have to agree with you about Dr. Tankersley’s results. I was very dissolusioned yesterday when he sent me an e-mail with the following —
—————
“Sequoyah’s mother was Elizabeth Watts, Wurteh, not to be confused with her grandmother, Wurteh, wife of Great Eagle. Her father was the Englishman, John Watts Sr. Wurteh was at most a halfblood. Christopher Gist was also an Englishman, which would make Sequoyah a quarter blood. Of course, all of this blood talk is preDNA. Some people that were listed as “full bloods” were adopted.
“The 3/4 percent of Jesse Brock is from a written, dated, and signed testimony. Given the percentage of Brock’s tested for Native American haplogroupings, i.e., Jesse’s descendants, it is right on the money.”
————-
I see a double standard here. He accepts the written testimony for the Brocks descendants but rejects it for Sequoyah from his own mouth, not those generations later who speak of him.
Sequoyah himself is recorded as saying in 1828 his mother was full blood and his father was half cherokee. Dr. Tankersley claims Jesse Brock was 3/4th Indian because his descendants say so through testimony, but denies testimony of Sequoyah (not his descendants) which is “written, dated, and signed testimony” as well.
People who knew Sequoyah (people who had nothing to gain or lose) said he appeared to be full blood Indian, but they heard he also had White blood, If some one was 1/4th Indian you’d be saying he looked mixed blood period. A half blood might pass as a full blood to someone who has never or seldom seen a fullblood, but 1/4th you will always see both Caucasian and Indian in them. I’ve never seen a full blood that looked 1/4th. You — anyone — can see the difference. I’ve seen mostly White people say “I’m half Cherokee” and looking at them I know they were 1/8th at most, but kept silent about it at the time. A person can look at another person and often make a pertty good guess. What he states matter of factly as “fact” is disputed by everyone else who has studdied Sequoyah.
Then Dr. Tankersley makes a claim that DNA testing can determine percentage of race, as in his case was 3/4ths. DNA testing can NOT do this! It just tells if you had an ancestor down the male line for y-chromosone testing and the female line through mytochondrial DNA, that a single ancestor was Indian or White or Black or Asian.
He must think I am an idiot or he wouldn’t be trying to feed me this nonsense. I didn’t spontaneously generate out of the cabbage patch yesterday, ya know. 🙂 But I am dissapointed that he is making these obvious mistakes. I thought he’d be objective and stick to facts, and he does neither.
vance
Brenda,
Could be heresay info but I found a Jane Jennie Ray who m’d Bradley Collins 22 Feb 1817 in Orange Co., NC. My distant cousin (Michael K. Hendrix) has her as the daughter of George Ray (no dob or dod and his line not traced) and Martha Robinson, m’d 29 May 1792 in Orange Co., NC.
Martha b. 22 Nov 1773 Orange Co., NC (d.bef. May 1838 Orange Co., NC), dau of Michael Robinson, Sr., b. 21 Jan 1731/32 Ulster, Ireland, and Mary Ray, b. 5 Aug 1732 Ireland.
Jennie Ray’s siblings (no dates): Michael, Mary (Polly), Sarah (Sallie), Delilah, Martha Ann, James Collins Ray. (Is “Collins” too much of a coincidence?)
………………….
COLLINS
Back up in the mountains next to the Virginia border in
1800 Ashe Co., NC Census:
p. 74 – Thomas Collins: 00000 – 00000 – 7 – 0. (other Free)
p. 75 – Vadery (Vardy?) Collins: 00000 – 00000 – 4 – 0. (other Free)
p. 75 – Valentine Collins: 00000 – 00000 – 6 – 0. (other Free)
p. 76 – Ambrose Collins: 00000 – 00000 – 4 – 0. (other Free)
p. 78 – Arch. Gibson: 00000 – 00000 – 7 – 0. (other Free)
p. 78 – Ezekiel Gibson: 00000 – 00000 – 3 – 0. (other Free)
p. 78 – Joel Gibson: 00000 – 00000 – 2 – 0. (other Free)
…….
A Valentine Collins shows up in 1820 Floyd Co., KY – see below.
…….
Because none of these Collins nor Meridith are anywhere in 1790 NC, they may have gone to Virginia. The 1790 Virginia census was burned during the War of 1812.
…….
There was a Bradley Collins on the muster rolls of the First Company, Orange County Regiment in 1812 to (and?) 1814.
“War of 1812 Service Records” on ancestry.com lists
“Bradley Collins, Private, 5 Reg’t (Atkinson’s) N.C. Militia.”
…….
1810 Floyd Co., Ky : Meredith Collins = 42001-01110-0-0.
as white.
1820 Floyd Co., Ky : Meridith Collins = as FPC 2211-0001.
(2 males to 14; 2 males to 26; 1 male to 45; 1 male 45 & over; and 1 female 45 & over.)
Next door to Meridith is Bradley Collins with a strange listing.
Looking at the record, one can see that he was originally listed as white :
100012-00000. (1 male to 15; 1 male 26 to 44; 1 male 45 & over.) Then, the 1’s and the 2 were then over-written to make them “0” ‘s with FPCs listed as 1010-3010. On this page, listed as white, are several surnames of Indian descent: 1 Gibson, 1 Adkins, 2 Roberts & 5 Mullins, altho I don’t know if these particular people were of Indian descent or not.
…….
Other COLLINS of 1820 Floyd Co., KY and their neighbors having surnames of Indian descent (that I know of) listed as whites :
…….
p. 3 – Valentine Collins: FPCs 9301 – 8311.
On same page:
Zachariah Gibson: 1 white female 45 & over with FPCs 0301-0000.
John Mosley: FPCs 1100-1100.
James Hogg: whites with 1 FPC male (to age 26) changed to “0”.
William Allen: FPCs 0010-3010.
Martin Gibson: FPCs 7201-1010.
with 2 “white” Caudill on same page.
…….
p. 14 – James Collins: 200010-30010-0-0 (all white)
with 3 Johnson, 5 Gibson, 2 Mullins, 1 Rogers, 1 Caudill.
…….
p. 18 – William Collins: 210110-31010-0-0 (all white)
with 1 Mayo, 2 Spurlock.
…….
p. 23 – Edward Collins: 000100-01001-0-0 (all white)
with 4 Preston, 1 Lewis, 1 Crabtree.
…….
p.33 – Reuben Collins: 200100-30010-0-0 (all white)
with 1 Waller and Thomas Steward & Job Dean.
John Dean: 000111- 0 white females – FPCs 0000-2100.
…….
p. 42 – George (1) Collins: 000011-00101-0-0 (white)
p. 42 – George (2) Collins: 000100-10100-0-0 (white)
with 3 Rutherford, 1 with mixed household:
__illeg.__ Rutherford: 200100-10100-0- FPCs 0001-0201.
…………………………………………
You may already have ran across this, but……..
A Costello – Hinchey Family Tree listing on ancestry.com lists Mary “Polly” Margaret HOLLOWAY as “b. 1765 in Harlan, Kentucky”, and died “1812-1814”, “marriage 1: Meredith Meridia Collins, b.1760 in Virginia” and “married: 1795 in Va/NC”. Children listed:
“John Wesley, b.1797-1798 near Va border, Tn.
Archibald, b.1800 Russell Co., Va.
Edward, b.1801 Russell Co., Va.
James, b.1801-1804 Russell Co., Va.
Female Collins, b. 1805-1806.
William, b. 1806-1807 Russell Co., Va.
Bradley” (no dates)
…….
Begining researchers reading this should always take all posted family trees with a dash of salt and verify everything before using it.
…….
A second listing “Unknown”, last updated Aug 25, 2001, with email listed: puck5@kih.net,
lists Meredith Collins, b. 1760 Va., d. 1841 Pike Co., Ky. M’d Polly Holloway, b. Va., married 1784; with children: John Wesley, b. Russell Co., Va; Archibald; James; Bradley; William, b.13 Apr 1806 Russell Co., Va.
…….
While studying the 1820 Orange Co., NC Collins’s, on p.304 there is John Collins = 100010 – 00100 – 0 – 0. and next door is:
Thos. Holloway = 110010 – 00010 – 0 – 0.
……………….
p.s…… Samuel Patterson – found several in 1790 Adams Co. (county seat Gettysburg), Pa., with “Other Free Persons” in his household. There are so many Samuel Pattersons it’s been impossible to follow them or distinguish between them.
Bill
>>>>Jennie Ray’s siblings (no dates): Michael, Mary (Polly), Sarah (Sallie), Delilah, Martha Ann, James Collins Ray. (Is “Collins” too much of a coincidence?) WOW I have to agree….too much of a coincidence.
It sounds like this is my line however Bradley was in Russell Co. Va with his father from 1799-1809 and must have returned to NC to marry. He then showes up in Floyd Co. Ky about 1820 to join his family. Bradley (an uncommon name for that time period so I believe it is possible his mother was a Bradley)married THREE more times, (2) CATHERINE BARNEY July 28, 1831 in Clay Co. Ky. He married (3) BETSY GRIFFIN February 16, 1833 in Clay Co. Ky. He married (4) ELIZABETH LUNSFORD September 05, 1836 in Clay Co. KY. It is believed he only had children by first marriage but that has not been proven. Bradley and a sister were born about 1787-1795 in NC children of Meredith and unnamed first wife.
Children of BRADLEY COLLINS and JANE RAY are:
i. ANDREW3 COLLINS, b. 1811, Russell Co. Virginia.
ii. JOHN COLLINS.
iii. HIRAM COLLINS.
COLLINS
Back up in the mountains next to the Virginia border in
1800 Ashe Co., NC Census:
p. 74 – Thomas Collins: 00000 – 00000 – 7 – 0. (other Free)
p. 75 – Vadery (Vardy?) Collins: 00000 – 00000 – 4 – 0. (other Free)
p. 75 – Valentine Collins: 00000 – 00000 – 6 – 0. (other Free)
p. 76 – Ambrose Collins: 00000 – 00000 – 4 – 0. (other Free)
p. 78 – Arch. Gibson: 00000 – 00000 – 7 – 0. (other Free)
p. 78 – Ezekiel Gibson: 00000 – 00000 – 3 – 0. (other Free)
p. 78 – Joel Gibson: 00000 – 00000 – 2 – 0. (other Free)
…….
Vardy, Valentine, and Ambrose were sons of Samuel Collins son of Old Thomas Collins of Flatt River who had a daughter that married Moses Riddle. Valentine was living in Russell Co. near Meredith and migerated to Floyd Co. Ky about the same time as Meredith living close by. For years I thought they might be brothers but have never proven it. As late I believe them to be possibly first cousins. I still believe it is possible that Meredith’s father to be a John Collins, possibly the brother to Samuel.
All of these Collins were listed as Mullato or FPC at one time or another. Of Meredith’s children only Bradley and Meredith were so listed. By the time his children were of marrying age they were then listed as white.
>While studying the 1820 Orange Co., NC Collins’s, on p.304 there is John Collins = 100010 – 00100 – 0 – 0. and next door is:
Thos. Holloway = 110010 – 00010 – 0 – 0.
>>>>
I find this interesting and will have to check this out. This John Collins could have been the grandfather of Bradley, father to Meredith and that would explain a lot of things. BUT proving it????
Brenda
Brenda,
The John Collins and Thos. Holloway living next door to each other in 1820 Orange Co., were both in the age range of 26 to 44 yrs old which means they were born between 1776 and 1794, so this John Collins can’t be Meredith’s father since Mededith is on the 1810 Floyd Co., Ky census as 45 and over. This John is also too old to be Bradley’s son John. Meredith and Bradley are both surnames so both probably had an unknown first name. There are plenty of BRADLEY families in the area of Russell & Washington Counties listed in Lewis Preston Summers “Annals of Southwest Virginia” – I’ll see what’s there specifically.
The Andrew and Hiram Collins rings some bells and thought they were in Orange Co but after checking, it must have been somewhere else – I’ll check that out too.
An older cousin once told me, “There’s always more than one, and sometimes more than two, with the same name.”
Indeed, that appears to be true here also unless this is him ……. In 1830, 1840 & 1850 Orange Co., NC, there is a Bradley Collins that was born about 1795 in NC per the 1850 census (living and working at Samuel (45, NC) & Margaret (41, NC) Thompson’s.
In 1830 (p.345), he’s born in 1790’s and lives three houses away from Nancy Collins, age 70 to 79 (born in 1750’s).
A few pages away (p.353) is a James Collins, born 1790’s, next door to a John Collins, born 1800-1810.
In 1840 (p. 170), Nancy Collins is 80 to 89 and Bradley Collins, age 40 to 49 lives next door to her and George Collins, age 20 to 29 is next door to Bradley. They are listed as white but looking at the census taker’s name sometimes can make a chill run up your back – this one was William W. ALLISON, “one of those” names being/having Indian people in it. Theory being that a person who has successfully assimilated wouldn’t want to ruin things by listing some relative (no matter how distant) as anything but white because nearly everyone in the county knows who’s related to whom. I have ran into this phenomena more than a few times in Ky & Ind records.
Anyway, let me look at this again. Oh, one more thing – did Meredith Collins’ son John Wesley die in McDowell Co., Wva, and Meredith’s son William die in 1896 in Nicholas Co., Wva?!?
Bill
>>Anyway, let me look at this again. Oh, one more thing – did Meredith Collins’ son John Wesley die in McDowell Co., Wva, and Meredith’s son William die in 1896 in Nicholas Co., Wva?!?
>>>>
Meredith’s son John W. (I have never listed him by anything other than the W as that is the only way i have ever seen it. My grandfather was Ervin Walker Sr. and my father Ervin Walker Jr. I was told the Walker was a family name but have never connected it. Another researcher is saying the W. stands for Wesley but when ask for documentation there is none.)born 1797 (census says Va/TN) (1797 Meredith is listed on tax list of Wilkes Co. NC) died after 1870 McDowell Co. WV census was taken. William Collins SR. sold his land in McDowell Co. and moved to Nicholas Co. After the death of Mary & John the youngest son Richard went to live with his uncle William Sr.Nicholas Co. There he married my gr grandmother Fidella Downtain Donellson.
As per the Bradley Collins there must have been two: Check this out:
Collins living in areas of Russell Co. Va.1787-1819
1787-1796 No Collins found.
1797 Mar 11 Isaac Colns 1002 Lower District
1798 Apr 25 Isaac Colns 1003 Lower District
1799-1800 No Collins found.
1801 Marady Collins 1000 Upper District (my Meredith)
1802 Valentine Colns 1001 Lower District
1803 no Collins found.
1804 May 15 Meredith Collins 1001 Upper District
1805 James Collins 1001 Lower District
1806 James Collins 1000 Lower District
1806 Meredith Collins 1001 Upper District
1807 Meredith Collins 2002 Upper District
1807 James Collins 1001 Lower District
1808 Taxes were not collected.
1809 ” “
1810 James Collins 1001 Lower District (South District)
1811 James Collins 1002 Lower District
1812 Mar 19 Henry Collens 1001 Lower District
1812 Apr 1 James Collings 1001 Lower District
1813 line 25 James Collins 1001 Lower District
1813 line 57 Henry Collens 1001 Lower district
1814 James Collens 1001 Lower District
1815 Apr 10 Griffeth Collens 30032 Lower District
1815 Apr 10 Doury Collins 10031 Lower District
1815 Apr 27 James Collins 10025 Lower District
1816 Feb 15 Bradley Collins 1001 Lower District
1816 May 13 James Collins 1001 Lower District
1817 May 6 James Collens 1003 Lower District
1817 May 6 Bradley Collens 1001 Lower District
1818 Apr 22 Thomas Collins 1000 Upper District
1818 Mar 3 Bradley Collins 1001 Lower District
1818 Apr 16 James Colins 1002 Lower District
1818 Apr 16 George Collins jr 1000 Lower District
1818 Apr 16 George Collins Sr 1001 Lower District
1819 Apr 3 Bradley Collins 1001 Lower District
1819 Apr 10 James Collins 1002 Lower District
1819 May 3 Isaac Collens 1002 Lower District
Bradley s a first name is not like looking for the jillons of John’s but there must have been at least two.
folks,
I have been in contact with a
Bill Little Red Wolf Chance
Southern Wolf Clan teaching Council
Indian Creek Band , Chickamauga Creek Inc.
He has sent me this information on the Spencer and Brock names.
We have made some fining on your Family.
James Spencer Born 1784 – war 1812
Caty Spencer – Caty Pumpkin Henderson Rolls # 335 / #346
Aaron Brock – Husband and Father – Henderson Rolls #346
Susan Brock – Wife
Jesse Brock -Son
Pumpkin Boy was the Brother of Old Tassel the Cherokee term for Pumpkin Boy was ( Lyahuwagiatswtsa ). He was also called No Pumpkin. He married Chahwayoocah. He was killed in Battle at Ishs Station in 1793. He was a Full Blood Cherokee Man.
Chahahyoocah the wife of Pumpkin Boy after her husband death in 1793, she live near Nickajack.
Caty Pumpkin – Caty Spencer the Daughter of Pumpkin Boy and Chahwahyoocah Born 1790 lived with Doublehead after her Father death in 1793 , She married James Spencer and was a Full Blood Cherokee Women.
The death in Ky. that you were talking about Red Bird and around 1811, the report we have from the Settlers and Intruders on Cherokee Indian lands 1801 to 1816 talk about the killing of two Cherokee on or about the 24th of January 1813 in the Cherokee Nation. The names of the Cherokees who were killed were Dick Benge a Half Blood Cherokee and a Cherokee Named Jack or ( Jacket ). Vizt Jeremiah Jeffrey and son in law name not Known at this time. Daniel Roberts , Talley , Ragsdale (these last three had moved on Indian lands near Crow Creek ,) James Corvan , Condry and that they live on the Northern boundaries of the Cherokee Nation.
This is the finding we have in the Legal records in our files, if we can be of any other help please let us no.
We pray that you journey will be in peace , and that Yowa will be at your side.
**********************************************
I wrote back asking how to obtain a copy of these applications:
Osiyo Brenda ,
We pray you are fill much better today , as you walk your path with Yowa.
You can fine the applications that each one of your family file with the B.I.A. on file at the close Presidential Library to you. They will not copy them for you , you must go your self and do it , or send someone to do it for you , they do charge for the copes.
Caty Spencer is Caty Pumpkin , and her B.I.A. no. is #346 and her Father B.I.A. no,.346 Aaron Brock , and James Spencer is listed on the war of 1812 Cherokee Census as Cherokee , that is why you would need to go to the nears Presidential Library to pull the Application they file out long time ago, to see who they put down as family members.
You need to pull Aaron Brock #346 Application and Caty Spencer BIA # 346 Application so you can look at both and see why they have the same BIA numbers, it looks to be that he is her Father.
That is the way the records look at this time , we will not no anymore until you pull the applications up.
I pray that you path has been make some what easier.
Wado
Bill Little Red Wolf Chance
Southern Wolf Clan teaching Council
Indian Creek Band , Chickamauga Creek Inc.
Does anybody here on the forum know what he means by a Presidential Library ? Could it be the archives in DC or perhaps in Oklahoma?
Any help appreciated.
Brenda
Brenda,
I believe those records are kept by the National Archives which do have regional Centers outside Wash., D.C., i.e, there is one in Chicago, Atlanta, etc.
The Indian Benge he cites as killed, was killed by his half brother Vincent Hobbs, one of my related families.
Bill
He probably means NARA or NAIL office you cna look up their locations online — Ft Worth, Atlanta, et cetera . . .
vance
Bill, you must have posted maybe a minute before I did, as when I read the posts yours wasn’t there but when I posted, it came up after yours. 🙂
vance
Linda,
I am not sure about the SPENCER surname. Family oral history has always said the parents of James Spencer came from the north and were Onieda. I do have the War of 1812 document that identifies James Spencer as Indian but no tribe is stated. The curious thing is that there was a Spencer land grant in Arkansas that the Spencers never lived on until James’ granddaughter and her husband William Floyd COLLINS(also from my line), went south to what is today Odell, Crawford Co. Arkansas and settled .
There is also a James Spencer listed on the Cherokee rolls as haveing fought in the War of 1812.
As for the Brock connection: I recently had discovered that the Mary Roark who took up with my gr gr grandfather, John W. COLLINS was the gr granddaughter of Chief Redbird aka Aaron BROCK. There has been much controversity over some research on this line and if Aaron Brock of Harlan Co. Ky was the same Aaron Brock that was the Cherokee Chief that broke from his tribe and became known as Chickamaugan. I am trying to document that line. I KNOW that I have
native american blood and I think I have told you before I don’t have much to leave my children but the knowledge of what their herigage really is. I am also working against a time clock as my kidney condition gets worse. It is just very important that I find the documentation to one of these lines that I am sure of (Collins-Spencer-Brock) on my fathers side and (Perry-Patterson) on my mother’s side. I want to tell you that all of your, Linda,
Bill, Vance, Cindy, have been so helpfulin my journey and I really appreciate all the help.
I have to go…ever try typeing with kittens trying to help. Cindy my kittens are getting so big. My little Sammy is spoiled rotten. Well all of them are but Sammy is special. (my bottle baby) 🙂
Brenda
Our kitten, that my husband (who would have no more cats) rescued, tries to attack the printer as it is working. Another always thought computer time was laptime. He still does but now he weighs from 15 to 20 pounds!
Cindy
PS: Two sides of my family who do not know one another and are related both through my ggggrandmother with the Blackfoot ID and the folks in PA, say they are Cherokee. Somewhere I remember reading that Saponi or Tutelo sometimes called themselves “Western Cherokee.”
Vance,
Washington Co., Va Survey Record Abstracts
mentioned:
p.84 – Cornelius Carmack, 395 acres, Commissioners Certificate, on the head waters of Beaver Creek & Steels Creek, Beginning on the north side of the big ridge, corner to Richard Moors land, corner to Moors & Nathaniel Gists land, at the foot of the big ridge, June 5, 1782 –
Cornelius Carmack, 400 acres, on the waters of Beaver Creek, 100 acres surveyed on January 12, 1774, includes 1773. September 1, 1781.
rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/va/washington/deeds/surv1001.txt
……….
p.151 – Nathaniel Gist, 200 acres. Preemption Warrant # 1972. on the waters of Bever Creek, north branch of Holstein River, Beginning corner to Cornelius Carmacks land he now lives on, corner to Richard Moors land he now lives on, June 5, 1782.
rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/va/washington/deeds/surv1002.txt
Correction to what Bill Chance wrote:
You can fine the applications that each one of your family file with the B.I.A. on file at the close Presidential Library to you.
Vance, you were right.
“I think the messages she received have an error or
two in them. They probably don’t mean “presidential
library.” — those kind of libraries don’t have the
Henderson rolls. And the BIA isn’t going to give out
info on someone family.
Trying to contact them is pointless, unless one is
submitting an application for a CDIB card. If the
roll numbers are right, the information can be
obtained through NARA.
Some of the application info can be gotten at Family
History Centers. (There is one here where I live) and
they do not as a rule do research.
One has to order the film, pay for its use, and copy
what one wants. But, the application records at NARA
can be obtained through them.
However, on the subject of NARA, if the numbers are
right, all she has to do is fill out a form and send
in the money with her request, making sure she tells
them that she wants copies of everything in the
file. (Not just the application.
Sometimes there are marriage and birth records, etc.)
I think it would actually be cheaper for her to go
directly through NARA, rather than paying me to do
it.”
I ordered the proper forms this morning.
Brenda
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
