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The area in present-day Hillsborough, NC, where the Occaneechi Town stood when Lawson visited in 1701 was adjacent to earlier sites where other Eastern Siouan communities had existed for hundreds of years. What is known as the Jenerette Site seems to have been inhabited in the mid 1600’s, during the time when the Occaneechi proper were in the Clarksville area. When the Occaneechi came to the Eno River sometime between 1676 and 1701, they may have found the earlier site still inhabited, and merged with those who were already there, whoever they may have been.
As to who went North to Six Nations and who stayed behind, while we can only speculate, I have often thought that the more conservative elements went North, while the mixed blood and/or more acculturated families stayed behind. No real proof, just my guess….
Hi Pat and Rockhound,
I too would like to know of resources available…My Martin Gibson was b. 1776 Orange Co. NC, later moving into KY (Pike, Floyd), he is listed as FPC 1810/20. He was associated with the Valentine Collins group. I have been trying to solidify his parentage, so I can trace back further. Any suggestions Pat? Thanks.
Shirley
rockhound wrote: Why did you think that? Is there a source I can look into?
Is there any proof of who exactly was at Ft. Christianna? Is it understood that these people (Gibson/Collins/Goins/Minor/Riddle, etc.) in Orange County, NC in 1755 had lived at Ft. Christianna or is it conjecture? We know the Eno had a village near Hillsboro, right, but does that necessarily mean this group was connected to them?
Are the Gibsons, Collins, Goins, Minors, and Riddles part of the 14 “Saponi” men and 14 “Saponi” women who stayed in NC while many others headed north to Shamokin Dam, PA? Maybe the “core” Saponi headed north while those somewhat attached (Tuscarora or some other tribe that was assimilated while at Ft. Christianna) decided to stay.
I gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.
Forest wrote: As to who went North to Six Nations and who stayed behind, while we can only speculate, I have often thought that the more conservative elements went North, while the mixed blood and/or more acculturated families stayed behind. No real proof, just my guess….
That has been my thought as well.
I find it interesting that not everyone in “the group” was listed the same way…Why were Moses and Mary listed as mulattos, while others were not.
Hey Pat , great to see you here. I know that Bill, Linda and Techteach would really like to visit with you.
I live in canada but descend from the Hardin people, aswell there are Collins, Gibsons, and several others aswell as (maybe) Goins.
In time I hope that you will post on the Hardin people, mine were from White County TN, I hope that we get to visit one day, perhaps an email or two.
Great to see you here!
Rockhound said:
Why did you think that? Is there a source I can look into?
Reply: I think so based on analyzing the research I’ve done over many years studying the tribes and the Goins family. I haven’t worked on the MINOR line as much. Delving into original records (either by visit or microfilm of same) yields lots of data. Then when you have enough primary data and analyze and correlate it, a conclusion can often be drawn. Using those methods is how I came to that opinion but there was nothing proof-positive. I always let Occam’s Razor be my research guide, plus a good reference librarian. 🙂
Is there any proof of who exactly was at Ft. Christianna?
There are early records giving names of some of the Indians who were at Christanna but I don’t know of a roster or anything like that. Studying the records of William Byrd as well as Brunswick County, its parent counties, and adjoining counties yields lots of good data and leads. The processioner’s rolls of Virginia are virtually untapped resources that often list families who had mixed ancestry. I’ve never seen these rolls published anywhere but the microfilm of these records are gold-mines.
Is it understood that these people (Gibson/Collins/Goins/Minor/Riddle, etc.) in Orange County, NC in 1755 had lived at Ft. Christianna or is it conjecture?
I would suspect conjecture. On the other hand, the Melungeon Collins and Gibsons don’t seem to be the same as the Collins and Gibson you are mentioning above as being in Orange County. I am confident that at least one Collins family was Saponi based on Orange County, Virginia, records (not Orange in North Carolina) but I think we are dealing with more than one set of Collinses. One set of Bolin/Bolens were also Saponi. I think these two Saponi lines are distinct from the Orange County, North Carolina, lines. I think the Saponi are the likely source of the Collins and Bolins who are found circa 1800 or so, living in what is now Hancock County, Tennessee. (When I say “I think,” the thought is based on my research so it is an educated guess rather than a fact. Other evidence may have been uncovered that disputes my thought but I have not seen anything yet that has changed my mind 😀 )
We know the Eno had a village near Hillsboro, right, but does that necessarily mean this group was connected to them?
I would agree with that statement.
Are the Gibsons, Collins, Goins, Minors, and Riddles part of the 14 “Saponi” men and 14 “Saponi” women who stayed in NC while many others headed north to Shamokin Dam, PA?
I don’t think there is enough evidence to say that with confidence. I suspect the Goins and Minors of Orange County, North Carolina, were a part of the Tuscarora who stayed behind after the Tuscarora War, or perhaps Potuskite and not Saponi.
Maybe the “core” Saponi headed north while those somewhat attached (Tuscarora or some other tribe that was assimilated while at Ft. Christianna) decided to stay.
I agree with that basic conjecture except to say the Saponi probably joined the Occaneechi and/or Catawba. This is my best guess for what happened to at least some remnant Saponi who didn’t travel North. It is fact and not opinion that many Saponi did travel North, some even ending up in Canada. It is also known that some Catawba joined a tribe of Indians on what is White Top Mountain in Grayson County, Virginia. I’ll even stick my neck out and say some of those Catawba might have been Sizemores. 😀
I think the modern Haliwa People probably account for the remaining Tuscarora, Eno, Shakori, and other tribes. It really is a pretty complicated task to try and separate the tribes and assign the correct families to the correct tribes. Tribal records are, in my view, the best way to start looking at common surname groupings within certain tribes. That is the main reason the lengthy name charts are included at the end of my book. There is a lot that can be gleaned from those surname charts by using careful analysis.
I’m not sure how much discussion about other tribes is allowed here so if I’m overstepping the boundaries of what is allowed as a post, somebody please tell me.
Regards,
Pat
Forest wrote: As to who went North to Six Nations and who stayed behind, while we can only speculate, I have often thought that the more conservative elements went North, while the mixed blood and/or more acculturated families stayed behind. No real proof, just my guess….
Hi Forest – nice to “meet” you. You have succinctly stated the basis for the many mixed people. I tend to use too many words. 😀
I’ve tried to figure out what key, or keys, determined the phenomena you stated. Many folks I’ve talked to over the years have stated they think that matrilineal descent had an effect. If so, it seems that white men, black men, whomever was the “furriner,” marrying Indian women would still travel with the general tribe while Indian men who married white women would remove themselves and start a separate band.
The processioner’s lists I mentioned in an earlier post show white men having taxable wives in pre-1760 Virgina. These mixed families lived in neighborhoods with what were apparently mainly white families, so obviously they weren’t following the matrilineal system. Since these same families can be traced in later records and are not listed as Negro they had to be Indian or something else; had they been black, I feel sure later records would have indicated that.
Anyway, I really enjoyed reading your comments on how the remnant tribes became mixed communities.
Best wishes, Pat
sammarroq wrote: Hi Pat and Rockhound,
I too would like to know of resources available…My Martin Gibson was b. 1776 Orange Co. NC, later moving into KY (Pike, Floyd), he is listed as FPC 1810/20. He was associated with the Valentine Collins group. I have been trying to solidify his parentage, so I can trace back further. Any suggestions Pat? Thanks.
Shirley
Hi Shirley – I’m replying to these as I come to them so I think I probably answered part of your question already.
My feeling is the Valentine Collins group likely has German ancestry and, perhaps, originated in the colonies in the Shenandoah Valley. It has been so long since I researched these folks that I won’t say I am not over-stepping my opinions on your Valentine Collinses. What I do know is that many of the early Valentines were or became Feltons due to pronunciation and spelling differences. I have always pronounced Valentine as we would the holiday celebrated on February 14, however, it seems that isn’t how many families pronounce it. Many say Vale-un-teen, which is closer to Felton and the original von Felton surnames. So, maybe knowing about the Feltons and their German connection might help.
I’ve heard that some folks think Valentine Collins and the Hancock County, Tennessee, Collinses are related but I don’t have any proof for what I’ve heard. If they are related, it doesn’t seem to be closely related. The German ancestry is also a part of family tradition in many of the Minor families who married into one of the Goins lines.
Phewww … I’m getting too old to think this hard. 😮
Best Wishes,
Pat
Tom wrote: Hey Pat , great to see you here. I know that Bill, Linda and Techteach would really like to visit with you.
I live in canada but descend from the Hardin people, aswell there are Collins, Gibsons, and several others aswell as (maybe) Goins.
In time I hope that you will post on the Hardin people, mine were from White County TN, I hope that we get to visit one day, perhaps an email or two.
Great to see you here!
Hi Tom! Gosh, I’d love to meet with them too. I keep hoping to maybe get to attend a Pow Wow. We live right on the Virginia-Tennessee state line and not far from North Carolina. I have ancestry scattered all the way from here to Nansemond County. My husband’s job is erratic so we had planned on attending last year but because of his job we couldn’t.
I know many early Middle Appalachian people fled to Canada because of the Tory situation and that is one of the factors that affected the RIDDLE family but I see that you didn’t mention being related to them.
My dad’s family is from near White County, Tennessee, and we visit family down that way when we can. That region has a lot of Cherokee-related families. If you do make it down here, please, by all means, drop me an e-mail and I’ll make every effort to meet you.
Thanks!
Pat
Hey Pat, thanx for this, well my Hardin people came to Canada during the 1920’s land rush when a quarter section of land was $10.00.
They didn’t stay however my grandmother married an RCMP officer at the time while they were here and she stayed her folks went back to Iowa and the rest is history.
I haven’t taken a head count as of late but last one (1994), when Granny had abot 200 descendants or so, Iam sure we could qualify as a southern tribe if we were there!
Once again, thanx very much for this, have to run, a snow storm is moving in and I am out of town at the moment!
PatinTN wrote: …the Tory situation and that is one of the factors that affected the RIDDLE family…
So much so in fact that none of the Riddles in my line, going back many generations, knew the truth.
Thanks for answering my questions, Pat. I wish I lived closer to the region so that I could look at some primary source documents. I’ll keep digging from here for now.
Pat:
Welcome. I am not sure how/if my folks connect with your research. My main lines were Green, Butt, Sinkey, Huston, Potter, and, the one with the Blackfoot ID, McLane. I have a Collins (not in my line) who marries into the line in Ohio, I believe, but my folks were around Shepherdstown, WV (Green & Butt) and Huntington, PA (Huston & Sinkey). The McLane was near Pittsburgh. All ended up in Licking County, OH, and then some went on to IA.
My research is indicating Shawnee for the most part, except for the story of Blackfoot Cherokee. One family member has the oral history of being a connection to Tecumseh.
And I am sorry; I have not read your book. Right now, with the tenure clock ticking, I stick within my area. Someday….
Techteach
Pat,
Your book is awesome. I need to read it again. There’s so much info there, too much to absorb in one reading. Thanks so much for the hard work. “Bad money”, nah, you’re “good people” I’d say. One question, have you ever heard the name Bowman associated with the Melungeon community? I saw on a website recently, can’t remember whose, where they listed the name as possibly Melungeon.
rockhound,
Also, if you don’t have “Melungeons and Other Pioneer Families” by Jack Goins, you should get it. While at the doctor’s office today, I was reading my copy and he was discussing the Riddle (Ridle, Ridley) family, Moses, William and Happy (Rogers) Riddle in particular. If you have the book, it starts on page 71 in a section called Melungeons at New River. A good read too!
Jim
Hello, Pat I was wondering if you may know if anyone has been able to trace out the migrations and localities/family descendents of John Collins who was arrested once in Va for “firing up the woods” and then agian or another one arrested in N.C. for simular charges?
Also any thoughts on the recent developments linking Vardy Collins and David Collins of “1750” by way of DNA?
If you need to respond in a e-mail you can reach me at
Thanks
Pat says>>> You are so lucky to still have ancient land in your family’s possession. Please put me on your notification list when your publication is available.
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My research may continue to come out in bits and pieces here at Saponitown. These families and migrations are so inter-related that it is hard to stay on track. So much that I know to be true but don’t have documents to prove…… so much truth that most people are not ready to believe.
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I am indeed blessed to live with the bones of so many generations of ancestors. It is very powerful. Since Becky and I have devoted our lives to locating, recording and protecting the burial sites of the ancestors, they have blessed us with answers to so many questions. All they want is to be remembered and they want us to know the truth.
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Another aspect of my and Becky’s ancestry that is somewhat unique….. EVERY line on my mother’s side and EVERY line on my father’s side was in Va/NC before 1750. It also appears that most lines were mixed from the 2nd or 3rd generation after original imigrant and have continued to marry other mixed bloods for 300 years.
techteach wrote:
Welcome. I am not sure how/if my folks connect with your research. My main lines were Green, Butt, Sinkey, Huston, Potter, and, the one with the Blackfoot ID, McLane. I have a Collins (not in my line) who marries into the line in Ohio, I believe, but my folks were around Shepherdstown, WV (Green & Butt) and Huntington, PA (Huston & Sinkey). The McLane was near Pittsburgh. All ended up in Licking County, OH, and then some went on to IA.
My research is indicating Shawnee for the most part, except for the story of Blackfoot Cherokee. One family member has the oral history of being a connection to Tecumseh.
And I am sorry; I have not read your book. Right now, with the tenure clock ticking, I stick within my area. Someday….
Techteach
Thanks so much for the welcome Techteach. I appreciate you taking time to say hello.
I know very little about the Northeastern Tribal Groups and haven’t studied any of the names you mention. I have dabbled in studying the Shawnee and they are a most interesting group! I have a great admiration for Tecumseh and his leadership skills; his teachings are still applicable.
I know what you mean about sticking to your area. That’s why I don’t know much about the Tribes of the Northeast. I am now retired from research so it is more fun now that it isn’t work. 😀
I’ve never heard of the Blackfoot Cherokee – that’s interesting.
Again, thanks for the welcome!
Pat
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