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Jim said: (snip) … have you ever heard the name Bowman associated with the Melungeon community? I saw on a website recently, can’t remember whose, where they listed the name as possibly Melungeon.No, Jim, I don’t know of any evidence suggesting BOWMAN is a Melungeon name. I’d advise the researcher to be very wary of Melungeon name lists.
Best wishes,
Pat
collins wrote: Hello, Pat I was wondering if you may know if anyone has been able to trace out the migrations and localities/family descendents of John Collins who was arrested once in Va for “firing up the woods” and then agian or another one arrested in N.C. for simular charges?
Also any thoughts on the recent developments linking Vardy Collins and David Collins of “1750” by way of DNA?
If you need to respond in a e-mail you can reach me at
Thanks
Hello Collins,
I have over thirty John Collinses in my database who were born in an era to fit “Fireball John” for the states of Virginia and North Carolina. I’d like to help you with that but I just don’t have the time to go through and analyze that many unless you can give me an approximate date and county or other identifying feature.
I’m not familiar with DNA tests that link Vardy Collins and David Collins.
I’d suggest using caution in drawing conclusions about historical relatives based mainly on DNA test results. People often submit DNA coupled with research they copied from somewhere else, be it from the Internet, correspondence, or a library file. The participant may not have verified the work before adopting it as their own. The potential for error will be compounded because a group-study report will have been compiled from flawed data. The report may make claims in support of or against a DNA test result that usually isn’t vetted by an independent source before publishing the conclusion (not to mention some of these reports should have been done as a double-blind study). So if a given number of people decide, rightly or wrongly, they are descendants of Vardy and/or David and haven’t done the research that already proves or strongly suggests they are a descendant, they may come to a wrong conclusion when they receive their DNA test results.
Also, there can be illegitimacies involved anywhere along the line that if not carefully studied may draw one to a wrong conclusion. This is particularly true if, as an imaginary example, Vardy Collins’ sister had an illegitimate son who went by the Collins name and a male descendant of that son had a Y-DNA test. The test would show the male descendant was NOT a direct line of Vardy. The descendant might conclude, well, I thought I descended from Vardy but I guess I don’t. In reality, Vardy’s sister’s child has the same paternal male grandparent as does Vardy’s child.
The above are just two problems in using DNA testing to include or exclude a person from a line. Based on my experience with Melungeon studies, I’d use DNA-testing claims very cautiously, particularly with a surname as common as Collins and Christian names as common as John and David.
Just call me JabberJaws,
Pat
rockhound wrote: I wish I lived closer to the region so that I could look at some primary source documents. I’ll keep digging from here for now.
Rockhound, if you live close to a library, you can get Virginia and North Carolina microfilmed county records via inter-library loan. It is often free or just the cost of postage to and from the library. Tennessee also offers the same service. This is an invaluable (and cheap!) way to conduct some primary research from a distance.
Regards,
Pat
PatinTN wrote: Hi Shirley – I’m replying to these as I come to them so I think I probably answered part of your question already.
My feeling is the Valentine Collins group likely has German ancestry and, perhaps, originated in the colonies in the Shenandoah Valley. It has been so long since I researched these folks that I won’t say I am not over-stepping my opinions on your Valentine Collinses. What I do know is that many of the early Valentines were or became Feltons due to pronunciation and spelling differences. I have always pronounced Valentine as we would the holiday celebrated on February 14, however, it seems that isn’t how many families pronounce it. Many say Vale-un-teen, which is closer to Felton and the original von Felton surnames. So, maybe knowing about the Feltons and their German connection might help.
I’ve heard that some folks think Valentine Collins and the Hancock County, Tennessee, Collinses are related but I don’t have any proof for what I’ve heard. If they are related, it doesn’t seem to be closely related. The German ancestry is also a part of family tradition in many of the Minor families who married into one of the Goins lines.
Phewww … I’m getting too old to think this hard. 😮
Best Wishes,
Pat
Thanks Pat for the reply, I had not heard the Germanic influences before. I don’t believe my Gibson’s were German, Martin was born Orange NC and later moved into KY (Floyd/Pike) he is listed as FPC, which would not be true for someone of Germanic descent?? I will keep looking thanks for your time, I don’t want to send you into overload as I see you have been inundated with ?? Thanks again, take care.:)
Shirley
tarcarion wrote: Pat,
rockhound,
Also, if you don’t have “Melungeons and Other Pioneer Families” by Jack Goins, you should get it. While at the doctor’s office today, I was reading my copy and he was discussing the Riddle (Ridle, Ridley) family, Moses, William and Happy (Rogers) Riddle in particular. If you have the book, it starts on page 71 in a section called Melungeons at New River. A good read too!
Jim
Jim,
I do have that book and have read it many times over. The Isaac Riddle who is mentioned in the book and is said to have contributed a lot of the information is part of my MO group. His direct ancestors are still in the area and have provided me some helpful information.
Pat,
I will look into getting microfilm via inter-library loan.
Now, back to reading Pat’s book.
PatinTN wrote: Hello Collins,
I have over thirty John Collinses in my database who were born in an era to fit “Fireball John” for the states of Virginia and North Carolina. I’d like to help you with that but I just don’t have the time to go through and analyze that many unless you can give me an approximate date and county or other identifying feature.
I’m not familiar with DNA tests that link Vardy Collins and David Collins.
I’d suggest using caution in drawing conclusions about historical relatives based mainly on DNA test results. People often submit DNA coupled with research they copied from somewhere else, be it from the Internet, correspondence, or a library file. The participant may not have verified the work before adopting it as their own. The potential for error will be compounded because a group-study report will have been compiled from flawed data. The report may make claims in support of or against a DNA test result that usually isn’t vetted by an independent source before publishing the conclusion (not to mention some of these reports should have been done as a double-blind study). So if a given number of people decide, rightly or wrongly, they are descendants of Vardy and/or David and haven’t done the research that already proves or strongly suggests they are a descendant, they may come to a wrong conclusion when they receive their DNA test results.
Also, there can be illegitimacies involved anywhere along the line that if not carefully studied may draw one to a wrong conclusion. This is particularly true if, as an imaginary example, Vardy Collins’ sister had an illegitimate son who went by the Collins name and a male descendant of that son had a Y-DNA test. The test would show the male descendant was NOT a direct line of Vardy. The descendant might conclude, well, I thought I descended from Vardy but I guess I don’t. In reality, Vardy’s sister’s child has the same paternal male grandparent as does Vardy’s child.
The above are just two problems in using DNA testing to include or exclude a person from a line. Based on my experience with Melungeon studies, I’d use DNA-testing claims very cautiously, particularly with a surname as common as Collins and Christian names as common as John and David.
Just call me JabberJaws,
Pat
Fortunatly for my lines our link to David Collins of “1750” is not in question one iota nor the genealogy of our line. In fact the test was done to proove the genealgy out within my personal line from Leonard Harold Collins to David Collins 1799 to Aaron Collins 1773 to David Collins “1750”and the Vardy information was simply a new find based on Vardy Collins lines testings. The interesting thing about DNA is that when you get a 100% match from two seperate tests done by two seperate labs then you can bet money that the results are solid. Add to that a third lab with the same results and you have proof positive for sure.
DNA used to be a quagmire to my mind once upon a time. However in the past year or so I have discovered that DNA can do only one thing for sure, and that would be linking related people together by way of either direct male lines or direct female lines. Your right about the other situations that can come into play such as daughter of Vardy and etc.
The 30 John Collinses that you have sounds interesting. The only candidates for our John or “Fireball John” would be those that were in that part of Montgomery County, VA that became what is today Greyson County. The John Collins of Bertie County, N.C. has been ruled out as far as what I have understood and the John Collins that was in Orange County, VA had migrated to Montgomery County and then after to N.C. probably in the vacinity of Peach Bottom and the New River in Ashe and Wilkes Counties N.C.
I find it amazing that such a linchpin in this John Collins sited as being Saponi in the VA court case as well as the court case in N.C. has not been figured out to date. I would think that it would be relativly easy to see the census records, land records, genealogy, and now with DNA testing to come to some sorts of conclusions.
For me it is kind of like this, you see a road before you and it splits in 100 directions. You don’t know which road will lead you to where you want or need to go and so you investigate each road to ensure the right path. By doing this, yes you see alot of usless information, but you also often can find related connections that may never have been known of before as well getting to the right road you needed to begin with.
So with that in mind and in seeing that many other researchers have reseached out various Collins lines a plethora of information is at everyones disposal. Yet with all the information that is out there no particular well respected (or publicized) researcher has been willing to make the leap and say the due.
Who in your best guess opinion would be the best candidate for John Collins/”Fireball John” in the records and best guess as to which family genealogically has the best case to the heritage?
Also just a comment here on common names such as John, David, or the last name Collins. It may be said that these names are common, however when you put together the children of these people and their childrens children then anyone can get a clear picture of who is who.
PatinTN wrote: Hi Shirley – I’m replying to these as I come to them so I think I probably answered part of your question already.
My feeling is the Valentine Collins group likely has German ancestry and, perhaps, originated in the colonies in the Shenandoah Valley. It has been so long since I researched these folks that I won’t say I am not over-stepping my opinions on your Valentine Collinses. What I do know is that many of the early Valentines were or became Feltons due to pronunciation and spelling differences. I have always pronounced Valentine as we would the holiday celebrated on February 14, however, it seems that isn’t how many families pronounce it. Many say Vale-un-teen, which is closer to Felton and the original von Felton surnames. So, maybe knowing about the Feltons and their German connection might help.
I’ve heard that some folks think Valentine Collins and the Hancock County, Tennessee, Collinses are related but I don’t have any proof for what I’ve heard. If they are related, it doesn’t seem to be closely related. The German ancestry is also a part of family tradition in many of the Minor families who married into one of the Goins lines.
Phewww … I’m getting too old to think this hard. 😮
Best Wishes,
Pat
Jinkies! Now I’m REALLY confused? Here I thought all along that one of my primary Collins lines was of mixed or oft times referred to as “Melungeon” descent and perhaps even some measure of NA or a mix thereof and now I must consider the possiblity that they were in fact of Germanic descent??? Hmmmmm…..why has no one else mentioned this to me/us before I wonder…darn them anyhow….if in fact the GIVEN name of Valentine was aligned, origin-wise as some variation of Felton or VonFelton….does this premise hold true too for all men so named? Meaning that Valentine Collins, Valentine Nichols, Valentine Gibson and Valentine Cole and Valentine Perkins were all non NA, not Melungeon but were in fact Germanic Von Feltons descendants? How perplexing. Perhaps , as mentioned in your book they were Fileds or maybe Fieldings? Man alive, we have to update our stuff and re-work our trees…perhaps we just don’t belong at Saponitown after all. *shakes head* I don’t knwo what to do about soem of my tree notes on Valentine…but for the sake of sharing what I do have I’ll post some of them here….still wondering why our Germanic Valentine was recorded as FPC?!? Were ppl of German origin indexed as such too? Anywho…sorry to be so wordy…this new info has me rattled. My notes as such:
“Source: located July 2005, “* In 1800 Valentine Collins is living in Morgan Twp, Ashe Co, NC. Also living there are Vardery, Thomas & Ambrose Collins. All are listed as FPC*
Source: Stoney Creek Baptist Church minutes: Dec 1801: Valentine Collins was “recieved by experience” and baptised., located July 2005
Source: Located July 2005: located at our melungeons site, geocities: ” 1820 Floyd County, Kentucky Census
There were ten Collins families on the 1820 census. Valentine, Bradley, and Meredith were the only Collins’ listed as FPC. Adam Burchfield was living between Valentine and Martin Gibson. Martin Gibson is thought to be the same Martin Gibson born about 1776 in Orange Co, North Carolina. He was bound to James Carrington in 1784 along with sisters Dicey and Susannah. Dicey may be the wife of Valentine Collins.”
Source: Possible source for individual, located Nov 2005:from NC Collins Genealogy, txt doc re: slave data, url located at: http://members.aol.com/slavedata/Public/NORTH.CAROLINA/CollinsGenealogy.txt
iv. Valentine, head of a Tenth Company, Wilkes County household of one male over 16 and two females in 1790 (abstracted as Vol) [NC:123] and head of an Ashe County household of 6 “other free” in 1800 [NC:75].
Source: located Nov 2005: timeline of historical Melungeon & Indian events by Jack Goins:
“1803 Valentine Collins and his wife received a letter of dis-mission 23 April 1803, same day Charles Gibson and his wife received a letter of dis-mission, but Charles later returned to Stony Creek church and he was excommunicated 1806. “
Source: located Nov 2005 @ Ancestry WTP: Stapleton Genealogy, notes to wit:
“Fact 1: 1800 Volintin Collins 50 acres on Brushe Cr, Ashe Co, Nc
Fact 2: beginning on Joel Gibsons lower line and running
Fact 3: down both side of creek.
Fact 4: Cen. 1800 Ashe co, NC “free Black”
Fact 5: Cen 1810 Ashe Co “free non-white”
Fact 6: 1820 residence Floyd county, Ky-per census as free black
Fact 7: Residence: 1795, 1796-, Wilkes co, NC tax list
Fact 8: 1810 Hawkins co Tn, “Valingtine Collings” Tax List
Fact 9: 1801 Scott co, Va Babtist churh Val babtized
Fact 10: other Collins listed-Tiny &
Fact 11: 1790 Wikes co, NC census …White male
Note:
1800 Wilkes co, NC census
Collins, Ambrose0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Free Black
Collins, Thomas 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Free Black
Collins, Valentine00 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Free Black
Collins, Vudery 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Free Black
Colns, Valentine – 1802 Prop. Tax, Russell co, Va
Collins, Valentine 00000000000—Floyd co, Ky cen
A Copy of Tax List for Capt Looney Company
(Page 1)
lands w pole b pole studs
(Page 4)
Vallingtine Collings 100 1
1790 Wilkes co, NC census
Collins, Vol.
Collins, Ambrous “
Where do we go from here Shirley?
Take great care and keep up all the great genealogical work y’all! Blessings from here to…Germany? ~~~~Laurie:o
Laurie – I didn’t say your Valentine or anyone else’s was German. I said that in some cases the Valentine name came from a line of German ancestry because it does. Maybe your ancestor is a namesake of Valentine Sevier’s or someone else for all I know. I only offered an alternative research suggestion for Sammaroq who said she was stumped, or words to that effect. Only you can determine whether you have Saponi ancestry or any other for that matter.
Collins – I’m not real sure what you are asking but at any rate, I don’t speculate about people’s ancestry. I’d have to put together a report and present it and as much as I’d like to help you I just don’t have time to devote to doing that right now. I’m retired from professional genealogical research. 🙂
Best wishes,
Pat
Thank you kindly Pat for replying. I’m still a bit confused about what you replied to Samaroq, to wit: “My feeling is the Valentine Collins group likely has German ancestry and, perhaps, originated in the colonies in the Shenandoah Valley.” Since Valentine Collins “group” is also my primary Collins connection maternally I certainly wish to learn or know as much as I possibly can about his family and surname origins, which leads me to ask about your statement…if it is your feeling that his group is of German ancestry what led you, as a well published and seasoned researcher, to come to that speculation? Was it based on his first given name or something further? I am just not terribly versed on VA and it’s regions but you mentioned that they likely originated in the Shenandoah Valley colonies….can you perhaps expand on this for me. I thank you in advance. Blessings~~~Laurie
sammarroq wrote: Thanks Pat for the reply, I had not heard the Germanic influences before. I don’t believe my Gibson’s were German, Martin was born Orange NC and later moved into KY (Floyd/Pike) he is listed as FPC, which would not be true for someone of Germanic descent?? I will keep looking thanks for your time, I don’t want to send you into overload as I see you have been inundated with ?? Thanks again, take care.:)
Shirley
Shirley – I think I missed responding to you on this. There are many very dark German families (dark skin, eyes, and hair). Where I used to live, there was a stereotype of the German being short, stocky, blonde and blue-eyed, but that is not true of all Germans.
Spotswood used Germans and Indians for mining, scouting, and building. In my mind, that indicates the possibility of some intimate connections between the two groups since they were in daily contact with each other. Early Orange County, Virginia, and Augusta County records show some of these connections.
I don’t think in terms of being just German or just Indian or just any particular ancestry for modern Americans. The name Valentine isn’t a Saponi word and that would cause me to ask why it was used in my family, whether in that spelling or a variant such as Felton/Fielding/or other.
If I offended you in any way by suggesting you might want to check out a possible German connection, that was not my intent.
Best wishes,
Pat
BlondeyeLaurie wrote: Thank you kindly Pat for replying. I’m still a bit confused about what you replied to Samaroq, to wit: “My feeling is the Valentine Collins group likely has German ancestry and, perhaps, originated in the colonies in the Shenandoah Valley.” Since Valentine Collins “group” is also my primary Collins connection maternally I certainly wish to learn or know as much as I possibly can about his family and surname origins, which leads me to ask about your statement…if it is your feeling that his group is of German ancestry what led you, as a well published and seasoned researcher, to come to that speculation? Was it based on his first given name or something further? I am just not terribly versed on VA and it’s regions but you mentioned that they likely originated in the Shenandoah Valley colonies….can you perhaps expand on this for me. I thank you in advance. Blessings~~~Laurie
No problem, Laurie. First, let me ask you this: you listed some excellent resources showing (or proving) that Valentine Collins was at some points considered to be a free-colored man. That is not questioned. But, that data doesn’t exclude him from having German ancestry or, if not him, his wife from having German ancestry. Maybe both did or maybe neither did.
Valentine isn’t a Saponi word and that alone would make me wonder how it came to be used in my family. The Germanna Colony was an early presence in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia (which was a homeland for a several tribes in Virginia). There are a great variety of records showing how the Indians and the early Germans “got along” (a southern phrase for friendship). It stands to reason they, ahem, were friendly in several ways. 😉
Governor Spotswood’s papers mention many expeditions that used Germans and Indians. Orange and Augusta County, Virginia, records also hold some clues, as do some of the records of other early counties.
My opinion is each family has to be studied on it’s own merits. Some of those fpc families were fully Indian living outside their main tribal unit, usually in an organized white neighborhood or region, but the wording of the law left the census taker or tax collector only one choice: indicate they were fpc (or, in some cases, “all others”.) Indians living in tribal situations, whether on a Reservation or on tribal lands, were not enumerated at all. Some of those fpc families were fully Negro, some were mixed, some were East Indian, and on-and-on.
If two Saponi brothers who stayed behind when the main group went North, and one marries a lady from Germany and one marries a freed black lady, both families children will likely, historically, be labeled fpc. There are many variants on this but maybe that will illustrate what I’m trying to say. If I had proof for this concerning your family, I would tell you. I only have speculation based on decades of research indicating a strong likelihood this happened in some of these families. I can’t be more specific on any particular line because it might mislead someone.
Hope this clears things up instead of muddying the waters more.
Best wishes,
Pat
PatinTN wrote: Shirley – I think I missed responding to you on this. There are many very dark German families (dark skin, eyes, and hair). Where I used to live, there was a stereotype of the German being short, stocky, blonde and blue-eyed, but that is not true of all Germans.
Spotswood used Germans and Indians for mining, scouting, and building. In my mind, that indicates the possibility of some intimate connections between the two groups since they were in daily contact with each other. Early Orange County, Virginia, and Augusta County records show some of these connections.
I don’t think in terms of being just German or just Indian or just any particular ancestry for modern Americans. The name Valentine isn’t a Saponi word and that would cause me to ask why it was used in my family, whether in that spelling or a variant such as Felton/Fielding/or other.
If I offended you in any way by suggesting you might want to check out a possible German connection, that was not my intent.
Best wishes,
Pat
Pat,
I guess I cannot discount anything, when I know so little. Richard Allen Carlson does however consider this group Saponi…I wonder where his information came from. I have a feeling the only way I am going to find answers is to go and search them out. I am going South (would like to go now, brr…) this summer and will see what I can find. I also have a g-aunt (I haven’t met) that has all of my ggrandmother’s things from when she passed; I may be able to find something out there. I also wonder why, if Saponi is not in my line that I have found so many cousins here?? Oh, well I have found searching out these Gibson’s is not easy…I do however believe that NDN is in the blood, my father looks too much for it not to be so. I will post a picture later, but I have to run (date with my granddaughter).
Shirley
Laurie,
Thanks for posting, you always have your info so organized, hope to someday get it together. Keep smiling:)
Shirley
Thank you for the reply Pat…for me at least it clarifies your thinking or mind-set on naming origins and regional ethnic mixing of groups for trading, work, etc. As to the reason behind why Valentine was so named, I cannot even begin to say…I wish I could time travel and ask that and so very many more questions but I don’t see a portal in the distance. I can say this however when it comes to naming in as much as it relates to many of my maternal ancestors; oft times a person’s given or first name was gleened from an admired person past (such as Jackson in the case of Andrew Jackson for example),,,others opted to use names for locations that they knew of (such as Menifee or Harlan as examples)….others used family surnames and honored their usage (example: Tyre Gibson…for local neighboring family of the same name)…still others used what I would call familial “pet names” (a few examples: Cricket, Coon/Cooney, Candy)….and still others used biblical names they admired or knew (such as Hezekiah ). We can only speculate as to how each individual aquired their given name really. Perhaps, in the case of Valentine hsi family knew well and even traded with or worked alongside a German family or maybe a local Valentine surname family treated them with due dilligence and they , in their own way saw the fondness of so naming a child. Many of what I would call off the cuff or NOT so ordinary names were passed on down for generations to come. I am not of the belief that a child’s given name at birth was mere happenstance in most instances…I know when I named my own children it was not a fly-by-night or meaningless gesture and I woudl think that our ancestors feelings were no different. Another thing to perhaps mull over in the naming scheme of things is that perhaps some parents so named a child (or children) so as to attempt to divert any speculation because of social discrimination….for example: if you were of some native ancestry and at the time Native Americans were being sorely chastized and worse and they could have decided to choose a name that would be say less than obvious? I have often wondered about so very many of my ancestor’s names…surely we all have…how many times have you or the next person “googled” a name to see it’s origins? I know I have done that plenty. I suppose the final thing I can toss about names is that I have also noticed in my maternal lines in particular that many many people had or used or switched to other names….and I’m not just speaking of getting married or shortening Andrew to Andy…they went by so very many different first and too surnames….I’ve seen Perkins switch to Ferguson…Wisecup’s switch to Nichols…Cole’s switch to Barnett…and on and on for surnames useage…and too many went by middle names or pet names above and beyond those that just altered their first names…I’ve seen some ECA’s where a child previously listed as Eliza decided to call herself Louisa….or Nancy decided to change her given name to Manerva. It’s both interesting and quixotic. I wonder too if it is possible that soem of our kin had a “common” or “acceptable” given name but tribally or culturally they bore a far different name around those they felt “comfy with? Sheesh….then we have the cases of name switching due to legal ramificatiosn or misdeeds…that’s a whole other chapter and I won’t drone on any longer…I have no certain answers just more speculation it seems. Thanks for the internet ear. Take care~~~Laurie
What puzzles me is why a few Collins men and a couple of others were listed as living on ‘Indian Lands” circa 1773-1782. I’ve never been fully satisfied exactly where these Indian lands were and if these were white men on Indian land or Indians on Indian lands or what. If it were, indeed, land set aside for Indians then the Indian shouldn’t have been paying taxes.
Were these white men with Indian families? Indian men who were taxed illegally? White men living alone in Indian country? White men or Indians living as whites who owned land in Montgomery County, Virginia, but at the time of taxation were in Indian country (meaning they had households in Montgomery County and on Indian lands and were being taxed for their Montgomery County lands).
Montgomery County covered a lot of territory in those days yet if it was, indeed, a part of Montgomery it wouldn’t have been called “Indian Lands.”
My best guess is these men were being taxed on property they owned in Montgomery County but at the current time they lived on Indian lands (which could be what is now Northeast Tennessee). Now, I am speculating. I don’t know for sure.
Does anybody have any ideas about this to explain why these few men were taxed?
Pat
Hey Pat; thanx again for being here, I really enjoy the time that you’re spending here and what you have to say!
Regarding the names that native people have given thier children, there is as many reasons today as there was back then, and back then they may have had more reasons to name a child in a “anglo” appearing tradition than using a traditional name.
If the old Siouan people did use names much like todays first nations people then thier would be names like Ben Bear Skin, remember NED!?
After the white washing of America, in the early 1700’s native people had to adapt, the rule of survival appears to be “exogomy” marry out or die out!
So today there is a tradition held by many first nations people to use English names to hide a traditional Indian name, there are many examples of this; Charles, or Charlie, (I had an uncle Charlie-my grandma’s first born) in the Lower Cherokee traditions Charlie is used to hide the name for a LICHEN , naming a child after this “plant was asking that he would remain close to home and be loyal to his family!
Aswell there are other, “Blanche” used to hide the sacred name of “White Woman”, William from “AKILA” Cherokee for Eagle; Eura, for Bear and many others .
If this theory holds true, Valentine would come from the traditon of “Keepers” or “Big Hearts” a chosen group of men and women that would carry on traditions! It very well be a German name and maybe Valentine Collins had some German blood, he may have even been named after someone named Valentine, at any rate we have him and we should be proud of him who ever he is!
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