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sammarroq wrote: Pat,
I guess I cannot discount anything, when I know so little. Richard Allen Carlson does however consider this group Saponi…I wonder where his information came from. I have a feeling the only way I am going to find answers is to go and search them out. I am going South (would like to go now, brr…) this summer and will see what I can find. I also have a g-aunt (I haven’t met) that has all of my ggrandmother’s things from when she passed; I may be able to find something out there. I also wonder why, if Saponi is not in my line that I have found so many cousins here?? Oh, well I have found searching out these Gibson’s is not easy…I do however believe that NDN is in the blood, my father looks too much for it not to be so. I will post a picture later, but I have to run (date with my granddaughter).
Shirley
Laurie,
Thanks for posting, you always have your info so organized, hope to someday get it together. Keep smiling:)
Shirley
Photos: (1) My grandmother Maria and father (2) My father (left) and cousin (on his stepfather’s side)
Laurie,
The 1800 Ashe and Wilkes census lists them as “All Other Free Persons” as well as the number of people in their households. There was no category of “Free Black” as you listed them above.
Bill
Thank you for correcting my FTM notes Bill. It’s always nice to be shown my own mistakes so that I can correct them…noted, corrected, my FT files thank you. Take care~~~Laurie
The fact that researchers such as Ms. Elder, Jack Goins, Richard Haithcock, Brenda Collins Dillon, Forest Hazel, Helen Roundtree and Bill Childs (to name a few) see validity in our work here at Saponitown greatly enhances our validity. Even Paul Heinegg has modified his thoughts on the native american aspect of colonial african americans based partly on research coming out of Saponitown. We welcome any imput they wish to share, whether it agrees with our conclusions or not. Saponitown is about amassing and analyzing data, not trying to prove some preconceived notion. Hopefully, a clearer picture of the truth will be the end result.
In post #32 Pat does an excellent job of explaining some reasons why we should be cautious with DNA studies. Bill Childs has previously expressed similar concerns. Like any database, remember…… garbage in – garbage out.
In post #36, Collins dismisses these concerns as not applying to his case since his research is flawless. I would remind him that there are very few absolutes in this world and certainly none in genealogy.
If I may put my moderator cap on for a moment, I would like to caution everyone that there is little room for sarcasm on a forum devoted to serious research. Post #37 relating to Valentine Collins in reply to Pat’s suggestion that there may be a German connection would have been better to just say, “I was not aware of a German presence in that area. Could you elaborate on that point?” I would like to apologize to Ms. Elder on behalf of Saponitown for the lack of respect shown by that post.
If anything I have said in this post offends anyone, then so be it.
Peace
Ken
Dreaminghawk wrote: Saponitown is about amassing and analyzing data, not trying to prove some preconceived notion. Hopefully, a clearer picture of the truth will be the end result.
That’s a great statement and pretty much fits my thoughts on researching our ancestors.
Hey Rockhound , that sums it up for me. The reseacrh here is often overwhelming, so many searching and locating these records really helps re-define what we know of this aprt of America’s early history.
Pat I cannot tell you how exciting it is for me to know that you have spent some time here, in my opinion it is a “great event” at Saponi Town!
Hi All,
I sent Pat a private message, but thought I should post here as well. Pat is a gifted researcher many of us have read her work and have had many questions answered, thanks Pat, you research has been a blessing. My Gibson question was not meant to incite arguments as we are all looking for answers here, and I know I become frustrated at times. We also know tracking down some of these elusive families can be 😮 Often times we end up with more questions than answers, but I believe the time is near when the answers will come, and I think Tom posted something to the effect that we may find out how related we all are to one another.
Blessings,
Shirley
From “Bahama Heritage” by Shirley Jones Mallard : (referring to the earliest settlers of old Granville/Orange co NC. In 1752 Orange was formed from Granville) “Germans came south from Pennsylvania along the Great Philadelphia Wagon Road (Ken’s note:through the Shenandoah Valley), (settlers) came from Va and Maryland along the Indian Trading Path and they came from eastern NC, some following the course of the Neuse River….. the settlers began arriving in the 1740s.
In her book “Durham Couty” Jean B Anderson writes that the Carringtons came from Halifax co, Va. The Umsteads were German, coming to Flat River from Penn.
Joseph Collins 1752 640 acres
John Carrington land grant 24 July 1760 700 acres begins on Thomas Gibson’s line
Arthur Mangum 27 Dec 1762 700 acres both sides of Flat River joins Thomas Gibson’s line.
Anthony Cozart Jr had land on the north side of Thomas Gibson 1753
Anthony Cozart’s mother was Elizabeth VALENTINE (this is my direct line) Anthony’s grandson married Holly Mangum, daughter of Arthur Mangum.
Just sharing this to show proximity of Collins and Gibson to Valentine in Granville Co,NC before they migrate westward. My research picks up with William and Holly as this is where they connect to the Nansemond group.
Thanks everyone for the welcome. I appreciate everyone’s kind words. This is one of the best boards on the Internet for discussion and exchange, and a storehouse of information for anyone wanting knowledge about the Saponi People and their associates.
If any of you live near the reservoir at Jamestown, North Carolina, you might want to research the ancient gold mines in that vicinity. Some of them are still visable. They were mined in the late 1600s and early 1700s by German miners brought down from Virginia.
The route Dreaming Hawk gave in his last post should open up a good research trail to back-track. Thanks for posting it!
Best wishes,
Pat
Pat,
I very much appreciate your input on the board here. Thank you.
Ken, remember the Hubbard Cozart and Mary Howard connection? Parents Hannah Allen and Henry Groves Howard out of Granville? Now, I wonder about the Mary Frances or Frances Mary Allen married to Thomas Gibson. Wasn’t it their daughter Mary Gibson married to Moses Riddle? I have looked but never found a thing as to who the Allen parents could be. In the right time and area for my lines though. Interesting that Valentine is another name passed down among the Allen lines too. If only we could figure it all out!:) 🙂 Sue J
A thought to remember even if a person lives next door to someone they don’t always know that neighbors ancestry people in the past tried to hide alot of things they didn’t want known. remember that even a neighbor could have given the information on census even with the wrong information because they didn’t know it, so if they answered questions it could be right or it could be wrong. This is still the practice of doing census today. DNA can be a little more concrete with the techology and advances of today.
Hubbard and Mary married 23 Aug 1802. They were my gggggrandparents. Hubbard was killed in the siege of Atlanta. Some day I hope to discover his burial site. Hubbard was the son of William and Holly Mangum Cozart. It is quite possible that this Granville co cluster is the source of the Valentine name in the Gibson and Collins lines also.
*****
Back to Elizabeth Valentine…… she was married to Anthony Cossart Sr. on 2 Aug 1696. They were both born in NY state and migrated to BoundBrook NJ in 1703. Elizabeth was the daughter of John Valentine who was son of Timothy Valentine… original settler in Schenectady(sp), NY.
GERMAN Moravian colonies and when they were established. Note: Bethbara and Bethania are just to the northwest of this Granville group. Also note, like the Quakers, the Moravians were VERY friendly with indians and mixed bloods.
************
I.—Pennsylvania VI.—North Carolina
1. Bethlehem; 1742; County Northampton 20. Salem; 1766; County Forsythe
2. Nazareth; 1744; do. 21. Bethbara; 1753; do.
3. Schoeneck; 1762; do. 22. New Philadelphia; 1846; do.
4. Emmaus; 1847; do. 23. Bethania; 1759; do.
5. Hoffenthal; 1837; do. 24. Friedland; 1770; do.
6. Philadelphia; 1743; County Philadelphia 25. Friedberg; 1770; do.
7. Lancaster; 1750; County Lancaster 26. Hope; 1780; do.
8. Lititz; 1756; do. VII.—Virginia
9. York; 1755; County York 27. Mount Bethel; 1851
10. Lebanon; 1847. County Lebanon VIII.—Illinois
II.—New York 28. New Salem; 1844; County Edwards
11. New York; 1748; County New York
12. Staten Island; 1763; County Richmond The 19 first-mentioned congregations are under
13. Camben Valley; 1834; County Washington the superintendance of a directing body, residing at
III.—Maryland Bethlehem, Pensylvania; the others are under a similar
14. Graceham; 1758; County Frederick body, resident at Salem, in North Carolina. Both are
IV.—Ohio subordinate to the supreme Board in Germany.
15. Gnadenhuetten; 1799; County Tuscarawas
16. Sharon; 1817; do. The establishments for the education of
17. Canal Dover; 1843; do. youth in the above mentioned congregations are at
V.—Indiana Nazareth Hall, Bethlehem, Lititz and Salem.
18. Hope; 1830; County Bartholomew
19. Enon; 1830; do. The Home Missionary stations are in Philadelphia,
Greenbay, Surgeon-bay, on Lake Michigan, among the Norwegians, New York, Olney, and Richland.
Sorry, this was 2 columns… NC starts with #20
I’m responding to post #37 on this thread, by BlondeyeLaurie — in which an Ambrose Collins was listed in the Wilkes Co. NC, 1800 census.
Once upon a time, for no very sensible reason, I searched the Grooms index of Wilkes Co. marriages, 1779-1868, for the first names Arthur, Ambrose and Osborne (none of which is particularly common, in the population generally). My thinking was that those named Ambrose might be kin to, or otherwise honoring, an old pioneer named Ambrose Crain (Crane), who had moved to Wilkes at a pretty early date from the part of old Granville Co. that is now Franklin Co. He was in the upper Tar River “enclave” I have hypothesized, elsewhere, as perhaps partly Saponi folks from Ft. Christanna and vicinity.
I didn’t run into Ambrose Collins, but that would mean nothing more than that he didn’t marry (with a license) while he was in Wilkes County.
Anyhow, if it is of any interest, here are the other Ambroses I found in Wilkes Co. (with their brides and marriage dates):
Ambrose Carlton m. Prudence Isbell 11/21/1805
” Carlton m. Lucinda Foster 11/09/1824
” Cox m. Polly Kirby 12/27/1827
” Foster m. Mary Miller 12/16/1816
” Foster m. Fanny Jones 10/27/1814
Ambros E. Hendren m. Charlotte M. Hendren 08/20/1857
Ambrose Hendren m. Nancy Mitchel 01/29/1824
” Holt m. Nancy Murrah 10/14/1794
” L. Johnson m. Nancey Laws 12/20/1833
” Knight m. Polly Livingston 08/10/1839
” Knight m. Malinda Bradley 12/10/1830
” Parks m. Frances L. Isbell 12/02/1790
” Powell m. Agnis Roper 06/17/1782
Ambris Ray m. Susanna Lyean 10/16/1782
Ambrose Silcock m. Rebecca Meadows 02/25/1830
” Triplitt m. Harriet Secrese 02/27/1854
The Moravian Mission Among the Indians of North America
The records of the Moravian mission among the Indians of North America – located at the Archives of the Moravian Church in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania – are frequently consulted by scholars of many fields. The popularity of the records is due in part to their intrinsic interest and in part to the detailed finding aids available for them.
The Mission
One of the major reasons the Moravians came to America in 1735 was to preach the Gospel to the Indians. In this respect they were different from most of the other settlers in America, who on occasion sent preachers to the Indians, but normally ignored or more likely feared them. For the Moravians the Indian mission was an intensive effort upon which they spent much money and manpower. The costs were borne by income from their businesses and by personal sacrifices of the members.
Although the Moravians had contacts with many Indian tribes, they did most of their work among the Delawares. They followed this tribe westward from Pennsylvania to Ohio, to Canada, to Indiana, and finally to Kansas. They also worked among the Mahicans in New York and Connecticut, and among the Cherokees in Georgia and Oklahoma. The work lasted until 1900, for a total of over 150 years.1
Perhaps the most interesting aspect of the mission is that the Moravians were always on the scene so early. This was due to a conscious effort to locate their Indian villages beyond the white settlements.2 Consequently, the Moravian missionaries were frequently the first white settlers in the places where they located, and their records are often the oldest extant records from those places.
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