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What do you mean by “designation that created the marker ?”
I think it’s important to consider that the two communities you mentioned are only two among many in NC and VA that are likely involved in Eastern Siouan descent. If, as you say, they don’t report the usage of this ID, then they would seem to be the only two places where you find Eastern Siouan descendants and a lack of Blackfoot ID.
I would raise the question that the ID has perhaps occurred there, but has been suppressed because of the presumptions people have had that it really “just” signifies black ancestry. I haven’t investigated this, and am just raising a possibility. The few people I’ve heard who are from “recognized” Saponi communities, who’ve objected to the term, were protesting a bit too loudly, which raises my red flags that the denial is really an admission. I would caution anybody to be drawing conclusions from that denial. We just don’t know.
Where are these known communities of Saponi? What have they said about the designation of the “Blackfoot” ID tag?
Nicknames that are rejected in one generation might be acceptable in another. Those accepted in one geographic area might be rejected in another.
I know dad (1915-1992) HATED the term “Okie” and bitterly resisted when Governor Henry Bellman (of course Bellman was a Republican, and Dad never had anything good to say about any Republican) in the late 60s wanted to popularize it. Dad would say, “Okies were the people who LEFT Oklahoma in the Dust Bowl, NOT the people who remained!” Then he’d go on and on about how it was a derogatory word and if anybody in the Army called him an “Okie”, well, those were fightin’ words”, he’d say, and he was dead serious, he meant it. He served during WW2.
But now our Governors regularly use the term “Okie” to represent Oklahoma people, and I don’t hear anyone sayin’ it is derogatory, people have just forgotten I guess, that once it was.
Maybe the origin of the term Blackfoot is like that. Maybe it was derogatory in one generation, but became accepted by those in the next generation.
I like a good puzzle, and I enjoy the speculation. I hope there is a resolution of it — in my lifetime 🙂
vance
I don’t think it was originally derogatory at all, mainly because of the coincidence of the name among the Western Sioux. To me, that speaks of a very ancient origin. You tell me, Vance, what’s the statistical probability that two groups, either Sioux, or predominantly Siouan by association, would just happen to be known by the same name by chance?
I think it just got to be derogatory because some of the descendants also happened to have African ancestry, and were living in a Jim Crow climate. The coincidence with the word “black” was used as an excuse to enforce the “one drop rule” yet again.
To my knowledge the use of this term amongst present day recognized Saponi doesnt exist simply put, because it did not exist in the literature or historical record. These groups reorganized after a serious hunkering down for 200yrs. they only remaining vestiges of culture and identity are known as cultural markers. this helps seperate cultural elements of “indian” from those that may be termed “african” or “european”. this of course is because in some cases, everyone has traits from other races. One example of a cultural marker would be a particular tradition of farming or prayer at church, that differed significantly from the populous abroad. Additional elements may be linked because of appearance, and self ID as determining ethnicity. A “black or white” family that has a tradition of being “blackfoot” where no blackfoot exists would be an example of a cultural marker. In many cases tribes here in the east did not know “who” they were in terms of tribal identification. many made these descisons within our lifetimes. these desiscions were based partially on consensus, partially on oral history, partially on records, and partially on the department of ethnography’s effort to identify and locate all eastern exant communities. Some were visiited like the Sappony, others only mentioned through word of mouth to find their way to the written record (such is the case with the Haterask or the Werwocomico). In short, the groups who are extant or missing from today, existed in history. the challenge is to link the two. Cultural markers and geographical patterning help this effort, as do census records, etc. Using Blackfoot as a cultural marker helps identify the possiblity of indian descent, but does not create an ancient Sioun blackfoot tribe that has escaped history. Blackfoot may be Sappony, maybe Delaware, maybe Shawnee, may be Chowanoke. It’s hard to say because its a cultural marker, not a source. I’d like to think of it as a nickname, butnot a designation. Additionally, the “popular” western blackfoot are Algonquian speakers, like the cheyenne. there is no coincidence at all.
The real question if we want to be really curious about the coincidence of sisipaha , is why only “blackfoot” survives and why not the translation of the other townships within the Saponi / Tutelo area. It is only one of many. Im so confused as to why so many peolpe feel challenged by this. It as if they dont want to know any reality, other than oral history. I believe most of these people who are part of the migration patterns, who have similiar family names, etc have some indian ancestory from the region occupied by a WIDE variety of Eastern Sioun peolpes, AS WELL AS Algonquians. Why there is such a mystery is baffaling considering how much research has already been done.
Eastern Sioun is much more appropriate, and tribal designations like Saponny, Eno, Occannechee, etc are as well. After all, the Monacan are Eastern Siouns who have no records indicating being Blackfoot per se – but they were known as the Cherokee of Amherst for most of the 20th century.
I think the reason distance has been created from this term amongst current recognized tribes IS because of its origin. I think the loud people DO know where it comes from, and recognize it shamefully as an indication of lack of cultural identity – THAT is plowing a little too close to the cotton for most of VA/NC indians, especially with such struggles to be acknowledged and the realization of so much cultural loss and misinformation within enrolled families.
Hence the great rush to powwow and adopt pan indian symbolisms as identified as “Indian” to all.
Patty,
I see that you have some surnames that I am also interested in: James, Baker and Hubbard. These are not my direct lines but they have come up in related research.
I have a Jesse James who married a Jetha Viney in Kanawha county, West Va, May 4, 1893. On their marriage registration both of them are listed as “colored” and were born in Halifax County, Va. I don’t have any info on the Jesse James but some Viney lines in Va. and WVA. have been identified in local records as being of “Indian extraction”. What county is your James family from in NC? Were they ever in VA? What county were your Hubbards from in Indiana?
I have a Sarah Viney who married a Peyton Baker in Giles County, Va., Dec. 23, 1879.
There are also Hensleys listed among the Western Cherokee Nation; have you had any oral history in that direction
Bess.
Linda, Vance
I have a few other things to pass on about developments in lower Wabash area. Since it concerns both of your lines, I thought I would send one message and “kill two birds with one stone”.
1. Patoka River is a major waterway passing through Pike and Gibson counties and emptying into the Wabash River on the east side. About 20 miles up stream toward the East from the mouth of Patoka sets the Blackfoot cemetery . It turns out that on the other side of the Wabash River, opposite the mouth of the Patoka, sets a town called Mt. Carmel, the county seat of Wabash county, Illinois. The Potoka was a significant avenue for the movement of people and trade between those who lived on the East and West sides of the Wabash, before the Europan came and afterwards.
I was looking over some books and old maps the other day and found out that Mt Carmel was established in 1825, but a village existed there prior to that. Interestingly, a town called “Powhatton” was a suburb of Mt. Carmel on a plat book in 1859. Later this same town appeared on the 1876 map spelled as “Pohaton”. It may still exist today as a separate political entity or as a subdivision of Mt Carmel. (See:http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/il/wabash/cemeteries/location.txt )
2. According to a local history, Edward Ulm, the son of Mathias Ulm, came to Mt Carmel in 1820 from Ross County, Ohio. He was one of the first Town Trusties for Mt Carmel in 1825.
Bess.
I didn’t know Edward was a Town Trustee. My great grandfather’s other uncle, a Harris, was an intial County Commissioner in WI. If, in fact, these were all mixed blooded people, they were certainly doing well in the Midwest. Another Harris uncle or cousin was a newspaper editor in VA or WV around the time of the Civil War. We’re not sure what side of the controversy he was on, but his press was chucked into the river by some disgrunted townspeople. On anther line, my great grandmother, Malinda Hudson, was a schoolteacher by the age of 19. I think if the “settling” of the Midwest were looked at in terms of the volume of people of mixed Indian descent contributing significantly to the mainstream culture , we’d have a whole new way of looking at the history of this country.
Itconani. maybe we’re having some difficulty over semantics. When I use the term “Saponi” in this context I mean Eastern Siouan, as Gov. Spotswood defined it, so I’m not saying that I believe definitively that the Eastern Blackfoot ID is directly and exclusive linked to the historic Saponi tribe. My position is that there appears to be a clear preponderance of Eastern Siouan connections in the Indian descended families who carry this ID.
You know, a thought occurred to me as I was on the road for my job. In this forum, we have explored possible origins of the Blackfoot ID from semantic viewpoints, from migration patterns, from historical viewpoints, and from cultural viewpoints. Is is feasible to explore it from a qualitative researchers viewpoint? I am not a qualitative researcher; any research I have done has been quantitative. However, as I understand it, a qualitative researcher collects information and then looks for patterns to make conclusions. Given this, is it feasible to collect information from those of us about our ancestors that might show patterns, providing clues to what the ID might have meant or is this just not possible, given that the time we are talking might be too long ago or, as the case is for me, ethnicity was so suppressed that finding out anything is virtually impossible? For example, one thing discussed was a method of farming. Could we find out how many were farmers, or even if they commented that they used a special farming method? Could we paint a picture of them that might provide patterns or clues to the ID? Just a thought…
I think that’s a very good idea. I want to get a database online and then ask everybody who’s contacted me in the past few years regarding this to enter their data. We can leave a field for info like this. I finally know how to write a database in Access, but I need to figure out how to convert that to mysql so I can put it on my server.
There never seems to be enough time.
Bess –thanks. You know I recall when looking into old documents that my ancestors lived on that river — Potoka — but I don’t know where on it or how near it.
Odd tho you mention a town called Powhattan. On grandma’s birth certificate (Loney Richey, b. 1886) it asks where her parents were born, and for her father Jeffrey Hoten Richey (b. 1851 d 1926) it says he was born in Powhatan (sp?), Lawrence County, Arkansas. Odd they moved from a county in Indiana where there was a town called “Powhatan” to a town in Arkansas where there was a town by that same name.
Again, could be a coincidence . . . i hav a lot of hints and supposition but very little facts to go on, as to tribal affiliation of my ancestors. But the more data I have the better able I am to start making educated guesses, which in the long run, may be all I ever discover — but that’s a lot more than I had before — wado!
vance
I was being clobbered repeatedly by Klez while a lot of this thread was going on and didn’t do it justice. I’ve been re-reading it this weekend and bowled over by a a few things.
What’s really significant is what Bess reported about the Tutelo in around Blackfoot Town (Dagsboro, DE). Earlier in this thread, Bess wrote:
Saponi/ Tutelos were indeed located near Dagsboro/ Blackfoot Town prior to 1747. The writings of J. Thomas Scharf, the noted Historian of Delaware,(1.) places the Saponi/Tutelo amongst other tribes inhabiting the southern part of Delaware (most likely Sussex county) in the 1700s. Here is what Scarf says in 1880:
“The …Scackamaxons, Tutelos, Nanticokes and many others occupied the lower country toward the coast, upon the Delaware and its affuents.”(2.) We don’t know exactly how this group of Saponi/Tutelo ended up in this area, but the solution of that problem can be taken up at another time. The main point is that the Tutelo according to Scharf were in lower Delaware at an early date.
Another citation places Saponi/Tutelo in the vicinity of the South Delaware in 1742. Tutelos (recorded as Totra) residing at Conoy town, Lancaster county, PA, along with Seneca, Shawnee, and Nanticoke, were a part of a famous plot for an Indian uprising in lower Delaware, at the portage of the Indian River area and the Pokomoke river on the MD/DE border. The name of the place was Winnasoccum. Apparently, groups of Indians at Conoy town, including the Tutelo, did travel to the MD/DE border. Here they met some of the local Nanticokes and “Indian River Indians” to put the plan into action. Details on this plot are recorded in the Maryland Colonial records. Here is what is said about these events in testimony on June 30, 1742:
“Letter No. 78:
Maryland ss | Dochester Co. | The Examination of Jacob Pattasahook, one of Nanticoke Indians taken before me one of his Lordships Justices of the peace for the County aforesaid saith about a month ago this Examinant was at Coney Town on Susquehana River and was told by the Indians of said Town that the Senaca and Totra Indians in Conjunction and by the advice of the french had agreed to Cut of the English Inhabitants in Pensylvania Maryland and other adjacent parts of this Continent and the Indians in Somersett and Dorsett County and to that End the Senaca Indians were soon to go to Philadelphia to Dispose of some part of the Lands for Arms and Ammunition and haveing so done the Senaca, Totra, and other Indians were in roasten Ear and Apple time to fall upon the Back Inhabitants and at the Same time the french who was to come by Sea, were to Land on the Sea bond side of Somersett County in order to meet the said Indians, and further this Examinat Saith not, his June the 30th 1742 Jacob [c Pattasahook Certified by Henry Trippe marke”
This reference can be found at this address online:http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/m…/000001/000042/ html/am42–654.html
After the plot was foiled most likely some of the Tutelo stayed on in the area. So by solid historical accounts, around 1742, Saponi/ Tutelo Indians were near the region of what later became known as Blackfoot Town. The multi tribal population of this area decreased over time but a remnant survives to today. It is established as the Indian River Hundred Nanticoke organization and has an office and museum in the town of Millsboro, which is a few miles form Dagsboro
In the 1930s and 1940s, several government ethnologists visited the Indian River Nanticoke population living near Blackfoot Town. C.A. Weslager, the noted researcher on the Lenni- Lenape and Nanticoke Indians interviewed a Joshua Hitchens on Oct. 25, 1941. When asked about his genealogy, Hitchens said his father’s family “were members of the Blackfoot Tribe.”(3.) Weslager did not endorse this statement of tribal affiliation nor did he try to openly attack it. Instead, he tried to claim that the Blackfoot tribe identification, in question, resulted from Blackfoot Town being a place name. Of course it is ludicrous to claim that the Blackfoot tribe spoken of by Hitchens has nothing to do with Indians, given that Blackfoot Town sat on Indian River. Indian River has been known by this name since 1640 in court records of Worcester County, Maryland, and later in Sussex County, Delaware. “Indian River Indians” who in fact were an amalgamation of the Nantcoke, Assateague, Saponi/Tutelo and others, appear in county documents and Maryland colonial records as early as 1700. Pulling this all together, what makes sense is to recognize that
1. The Saponi/Tutelo Indians who lived about Indian River were responsible for name “Blackfoot Indians” mentioned by Hitchens.
2. Because they lived there, the “Blackfoot Indians” gave their name to an Indian town located along Pepper creek, a tributary of Indian River, which later became known as Blackfoot Town. Blackfoot Town is the result of contact with the Blackfoot Indians not vice verse.
My work with history tends to be flawed by the fact that I have a better imagination than memory. But I was feeling today that for once this had stood me in good stead after seeing this documentation that Tutelo people joined up with the Seneca and tried to wage war on the British.
For some years now I’ve been trying to imagine what people must have been feeling, stewing at Fort Christanna while the world was coming to an end. It seemed like you’d think there’d be some people, probably some young bloods, who realized their enemies were not the Seneca (especially since most of their kin were, at that point, Seneca adoptees). The encroachment of the Europeans was what set in motion the pressures that created that feud, and striking out at the settlers was the logical and appropriate thing to do (not to mention the satisfying thing to do).
So now we know, there were just such people. Somewhere in that mix, we had our own Tecumseh of sorts, making a valiant last stand.
Of course, we likely don’t descend from him. We descend from the ones who decided to make off for some holler or some swamp and disappear. Which is, of course, another wholly logical, sensible and understandable response, and from the numbers of descendants, the one that worked the best in terms of physical survival.
Linda, I noticed on an old post under Blackfoot Saponi Va that there was an Anderson under that roll Could you let me know anything you know about Anderson name or era I have aHenry Anderson 1729 (Edgecombe,N.C) who had John Anderson 1760 (Brunswick) Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks
lentz of nc wrote: Linda, I noticed on an old post under Blackfoot Saponi Va that there was an Anderson under that roll Could you let me know anything you know about Anderson name or era I have aHenry Anderson 1729 (Edgecombe,N.C) who had John Anderson 1760 (Brunswick) Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks
It was post #1 you had some pictures on it
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