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Thank you Grey dove! This is so exciting. I know Sizemore data just seems to be lore handed down from family to another. However, Chief Red Bird, Cornblossom, Chief Bear Hart, Chief Doublehead, and finally Chief”Old Ed” Sizemore could not be all folklore. I think DNA from male ancestors proved that there was native american DNA. I know that the Sizemores married Harts, Osbournes, Peaks,Hash’s, and Halsey’s. Most of these surnames within themselves have cherokee or blackfoot decent. I’ll share whatever I have. Dolly Sizemore Hart was my G-grandmother.
Sandra W wrote: I enjoy reading some of David Panther-Yates’s information of Sizemores and Harts too.
Sandra,
Have you read Richard Allen Carlson’s dissertation, “Who’s Your People?” The Collins, Gibson’s, Sizemore’s and other families are talked about at length. The book really is a wonderful genealogical resource, but what is more, one gets a view of how they lived…the patriarchal clan leadership, the strong family ties, it really is good!:)
Shirley
No, but I sure would love to read Richard’s book. It sounds like it could explain some missing holes. Thanks for telling me!
Sandra W wrote: No, but I sure would love to read Richard’s book. It sounds like it could explain some missing holes. Thanks for telling me!
Here is a post from Brenda Dillon Collins on Richard’s dissertation…Brenda is no longer with us, but her wonderful spirit is with us in her posts…if you can, read them.
Disseration: by Dr. Richard Allen Carlson Jr.
Michigan State University
‘Who’s your people?’: Cumulative identity among the Salyersville Indian population of Kentucky’s Appalachia and the midwest muckfields, 1677–2000 .
The Salyersville Indian Population is a composite of Cherokee, Saponi and Old Virginia Indian families that consolidated in the late colonial period to form a distinct Appalachian Indian population. The families have preserved their identity as an Indian people ever since. An analysis of this identity through time shows that Salyersville Indian identity is the product of cumulative historical actions guided by specific sociocultural processes that subvert notions regarding race, class, ethnicity, religiosity, or political affiliation. In this case, the effective operational definition of Indian identity is based on family relations that provide kinship links, social integration, cooperative efforts, sources of knowledge and emotional support. Highlighting the functional aspects of kin arrangements—articulated through and supported by interrelated family groups over time reveals that the economic and social cooperation of kin works to maintain the size and strength of the families. The operationalization of kinship acts to focus Salyersville Indian identity on a definition of kin which subsumes various attitudes about race and ethnicity that are encountered at specific times and under specific circumstances. By assigning kinship a higher priority than relations based upon religious, class or political affiliation, the Salyersville Indians have managed to keep their kin affiliations and thus their Indian identity, from being obscured over time. Family is the vehicle by which this cumulative identity asIndian has been maintained. That is because kinship is the only constant serving to define and maintain Salyersville Indian identity through time and space.
Table of Contents:
Chapter 1: The Saponi and Their Relations
Chapter 2: The Saponi Diaspora and the Christian Band of Saponi
Chapter 3: Family Accommodations from Flatt River to New River
Chapter 4: From New River to Stone Mountain, Greasy Rock and the Cumberland Gap
Chapter 5: Melungeon Indians and an Interloper at Vardy Springs
Chapter 6: Finding Contentment in Kentucky
Chapter 7: Burning Springs
Chapter 8: Politics, Paupers,and Civilized (self supporting) Indians
Chapter 9: Salyersville Indians, Eastern Cherokee and the US Court of Claims
Chapter 10: Enter the Melungeon Hunter;Greasy Rock, Stone Mountain and Salyersville Indian Communities
Chapter 11: Struggles with God, Coal, and Whiskey
Chapter 12: Within and Beyond Mountain Divides
Chapter 13: Tell them on the Mountain
Chapter 14: New Day Rising
Chapter 15:Salyersville Indians and Their Relations Today
The complete disseration is over 700 pages . According to what I have heard there is a lot about the Collins families in this work. I am sending for a printed hard copy which should take less than a week to recieve. Cost for hard copy is $36.00
http://wwwlib.umi.com/dissertations/fullcit/3115947
Brenda
Hello Shirley, Sandra, & All:) Well, now that I figured out how to, I updated my avatar with my pic, looks like we could all be sisters, 😉 Looks like I’ve got alot to research. Nice to have a place to compare notes, hey? Well, have a nice wkend, and I’ll keep touch. As Always, Many Blessings ~~^~~ Greydove
Avoid Yates’ info like the plague. His writings are captivating…I give you that…but full of mularkey.
Hey Steve,
I sense that you have been disappointed. Something happened. Can you tell me a little bit more specifically, if you feel up to it. Would it not be great if you could start your own geneaology web site and do it the way you want to do it???
Greydove wrote: Hello Shirley, Sandra, & All:) Well, now that I figured out how to, I updated my avatar with my pic, looks like we could all be sisters, 😉 Looks like I’ve got alot to research. Nice to have a place to compare notes, hey? Well, have a nice wkend, and I’ll keep touch. As Always, Many Blessings ~~^~~ Greydove
Greydove,
I love your avatar, you have a beautiful smile!
If you go through my previous posts, you will see why I have a distaste for Yates “alleged” knowledge. Not “let down” & not surprised either. Like I said…Mularkey, but will add his site is based off of Kennedy’s bogus theories and books.
Hey, Greydove and Shammarroq!,
Good to hear from you all. Thanks for all the valuable info, Yes, it is great to compare note. I am proud to resemble you all! Thanks for the compliment! Well have a great weekend. I’ll keep in touch, and many blessings to you as well. We now will share a type of “sisterhood”.
Ok, Steve. I see. It sounds like you have worked very hard on your own research. You maybe even going into three years worth! I know that if we just keep searching the answers will come eventually. Research efforts can be very tedious. You are very intelligent and want to use what time you have to do research effectively and not waist time. Cause now a days time is so precious. I will be glad to share what I have. I have read some of Joy Kings work too. Not sure what to think at this point.
Actually I am heading into my 8th year of serious research and have wound up tied in with researchers with 4 times or more than what I have in years of research behind their belts.
What I don’t have time for is crackpot theories and thusly crackpot theorists who have no knowledge of the families they are theorizing about in the first place. Kennedy was one and although I never had any correspondance with him, I have had run-ins with a few of his underlings preaching theory at me when they had no idea anything about my family outside of what Brent Kennedy threw at them in from his books.
So when I read Yates’ site, back whenever I ran across it, and his Rootsweb World Connect introduction page…”Sheesh…Here we go again.”
I descend from Adkins, Belcher, Davis, French, Gibson, Hale, Johnson/Johnston, Jackson, Osburn, Skaggs, Stewart, Watts, and those lines tie in with Casteel/Steel, Chapman, Cole, Cox, Kiser, Lowry, Newman, and Salmons.
My wife’s family names include Bowling and Caudill.
And yep…every one of them have been called Melungeon at some point. And as my friend Don Greene said in a post that sammarroq just recently bumped on this forum, all this Melungeon hooha pertaining to my ancestors, and believe me it is more than just the surnames but first names and dates included, is just perpetuated in order to hide who they truely were. Regardless of what is said in the book on the Carmelites, and I have touched on this being from the same county by birth and most of my life, they were not Melungeon either. They were Shawnee, Black, and White. Tri-racial “Yes”, but not what has been presented by them. My paternal ancestors lived in Carmel, and that includes Gibson.
But I suspect it is because my ancestors are such an easy mark for these money grubbing liars who write books. EGAD ! How dare I say that? Well, they are talking about my ancestors, my family, and thusly me, so I have a right to call it as it is. A LIE. Plain and simple. They were an easy mark based on no one knowing much about them (according to their views) and figured “Who would know about some family from ‘Nowhere Ohio’ or from the Appalachian foothills of West Virginia?”
Well, my mom is still living and the last born of 10 children. She is fastly approaching 70 years old, but still has all her faculties and told me about, as well as took me to, where she was from in W.V. I knew all my family, I know the ones who are still living. And being that I am related to a good 95% of the town she is from…if not more…I have a good grasp on who is who and what is what.
Luck of the draw placed my mother in Highland County Ohio. I was raised around the Carmel area, knew quite alot of the families from there, my Gibson ancestor married a great grandparent and lived near the area, my great grandfather lived in Carmel. I am friends with a few from Carmel…those quoted as Carmelites who are not and who were offended by the book on them by a Kennedy cohort/wannabe.
None were Melungeon, Turks, Moors, Jewish, or whatever they have dreamed up now. Again, none of us have “Mysterious Illnesses” or 6 digits on our hands and a golfball bump on the base of our skull. Shovel teeth are not indicative of race. Nor do we sleep in filth with bedbugs.
No one was interviewed in that video on the Carmelites because no one was talked to, and no one is Melungeon. But put a film on YouTube and it becomes fact, write a book and it becomes fact, throw it up online and it becomes fact.
The surprising thing is that no one asked us, no one cares what we have to say any way, and we are shut out and a myth is sold to the public about us. And people need to be educated by us, not by an author, on what is truely going on. But they don’t bother because of living in a tabloid/Britney Spears world.
Pure and simple it all boils down to having Shawnee ancestry, with a smidge or so of Cherokee and lines going back to the Powhatan here and there in my related surnames. DNA is a joke, BQ/blood quantum is what killed the natives, including the Hawaiians (and I have a friend who is Hawaiian who told me that herself)…read the history of Hawaii when the Americans took the islands over and you will find how much the U.S. used BQ to prove who was Hawaiian and who wasn’t…when the Hawaiians already knew. You either have it or you don’t. You cannot turn a Jew, an African, a Irishman, or whatever into a native no matter what story you make up and throw onto a site or in a book, or on YouTube to support it.
I am not angered, hurt, or surprised by all this…but I d@mn sure will speak out about it when it involves my family…which this Yates guy certainly is doing.
Shawnee, Cherokee, Blackfoot: Lots of research! Well I certainly never have bought the melungeon theory, either! I look at myself in the mirror. I have high cheek bones, I have thin, (stern) lips, I have thick hair , and a thin noise line. This had to come from some where! I may not be a full blood but what I have is certainly not to be considered to be dishwater and discounted. I do not feel that my features are part of a myth. My ancestal history may be a tough mystery to solve, but not to be a myth! I hold that to you and your wife’s family as well. We know what they went through in history times. We know that they had to wear hats and long sleeve shirts, because they wanted to blend in with the white man’s newly taken over neighborhood, and not get made fun of. People did not see NA’s that way then (after trail of tears and some battles).
Wow! 8 years that is a long time. Sometime perseverence and continuing is what it takes to get that one tidbit that solves everything. One certainly can not disprove the grave marker of Aruna (Anna)Hart in Laurel Springs, NC that we do know. One certainly can not disprove the picture of Chief Red Bird (Aron Brock) who married a Sizemore. One certainly can not disprove that many of the Osbournes are directly related to Pocahontas and the Powhowtan Tribe and that we do know. Whether the battle of at the Falls in SE KY happened or not, a similiar battle was fought somewhere on the land of our ancestors. Our people’s cries are still heard in my ears!
You can be very proud of your family. I know you are. I recognized many of the surnames you speak of. My people migrated from Ashe Co NC and Alleghany NC to Grayson co, Va. to Wise Co Va and SE KY. as well. The most recent ancestors did this. The earlier ancestors were from Wilkes CO NC, Pittsylvania Co., Prince William, and Albemarle Co. VA. I feel very comfortable with your research. We do know that SE KY and Tenn. was pretty much Saponi, Shawnee, and Cherokee anyway. As far as I know we can not disprove that the indian territory that was on this land at this time did not have shawnee, saponi,cherokee,creek, and finally some blackfoot.
On my Grandfather’s side of the family I am also studying Hall, Polly, Creech, Sturgill, and Banks. I have heard that they were Shawnee or Blackfoot. I would not doubt that. My Grandfather Ed Sturgill looks like he just needs his tail feathers. He has blue eyes but the rest is something.
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