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Greetings to all of you at Saponi Town;
I am very happy to join your forum and I will hope that you will be happy to have me.
I would first like to commend you all on the spirit of brother and sisterhood that you have established on this forum. It is a spirit of acceptance, assistance, politeness, and friendliness. Many forums out there now are down right cruel to novice geneologists, and those that are just innocently seeking the truth of their Indian ancestry.
The journey of my family has been going on now for 240 years. My family is very large now and is widespread and yet there are still high concentrations of them here and there much like there is here in central Mo.. Like many families of American Indian descent we have some documented facts and a pile of oral legands and myths. Somewhere there is a balance of those great traditions supported and confirmed by complete documentation.
I am a descendant of Gardner Green. There is a history out there that says he was a Chickamauga Cherokee chief, the chief over the gold fields for John Ross. That his son Benjamin was a chief also on the St Francis River in the 1780’s in s.e. Mo. and was an acquaintance of Duwali “The Bowl.” That his grandson James was also a chief and by the urging of Daniel Boone led 200 cherokee families in 1799 to settle St. Charles Mo.. By this, and other things, people in my family have gotten politicians in the State of Mo. to recognize our family and their followers as a cherokee tribe. Well that makes for a great story but none of it is true.
Benjamin Green my 5th greatgrandfather, son of Gardner, came to Boone Co. Mo. from Henry Co. Ky. in 1833. He lived there from 1800 to 1833 and was a farmer. Before that he lived for awhile in Madison Co. Ky. and before that starting from 1786 he lived in the Lost State of Franklin in n.e. Tn.. That is what I and others have documentation on.
From the other end we are focusing on a Gardner Green listed on the 1764 tithables list of Old Lunenburg Co.Va.. We can track Gardner leaving Va. in the 1770’s with Stephen Green and William Sizemore and moving to Old Rowan Co. N.C. and the Old Sapona River (now called Yadkin). From there Stephen Green Sr. and Jr. and Benjamin Green show up in Madison Co. Ky., but Gardner Green and some of the Sizemores have continued on in 1790 to the Old 96 District of S.C.. This is where my Green family picks up other families such as the Franklins who also claim cherokee descent from Gardner Green. By 1790 the Greens and the Sizemores are claiming cherokee descent and by 1800 they have split. Each family has gone on to seperate counties in Ky..
The Greens and Sizemores of Old Lunenburg Co. Va. lived on Buffalo Creek just off of the Roanoke River and just barely in Va.. They had married in together along with the Jacksons and Griffins.
Please, I am looking for any info. on the Greens. There had to be an event or something that either caused white families to accept indian members or Indian families to live as whites and abandon their ancient customs.
Thank you! Dan.
Is there another Gardner Green associated with all those Cherokee connections you first mentioned?
Is the name Gardner Green something that’s survived in the family and now you’re trying to track him down? I’m trying to get a handle on what you’re saying.
It’s interesting that there would have been people “claiming,” as you say, Cherokee blood in SC in 1790. My impression has been that the generic use of that word, and the confusion around it, wasn’t common until the 19th century. Weren’t there Catawba that were taken in by the Cherokee for awhile, then they went back to being Catawba? I recall something like that. I think I was reading about that in connection with the Catawba pottery making and the relationship between the Catawba and the Cherokee. Perhaps your family was part of that community and that could be the origin of this identification.
We used to live in Buffalo Junction, in Mecklenburg, VA. Is that where the Buffalo Spring you’re referring to is?
As for the event that caused Indians in that part of VA to be acculturated, it would have all started with the defeat of the Occoneechee in what’s now Clarksville, VA in the 1670s. By the 1710’s all the piedmont Siouan were tributary to the British. There was an Indian school for them in the 1720s. Some of them it’s believed later went to William and Mary. The teacher, by the way, was Charles Griffin, and was reportedly well respected by them. It’s felt that many of the English surnames adopted by the Indians were taken to honor people they respected.
Gertrude Kurath in “Tutelo Rituals of Six Nations” notes that the Tutelo who went to Canada to join the Iroquois, in around 1740’s I believe, were dressing and living like white frontiersmen.
So, I guess it wasn’t one event, but a series of changes over a 50-70 year period. Really, it’s the same thing that eventually happened to everybody else. It just happened to them a lot sooner.
Thank you Linda for your reply.
In 1908 200 people who claimed descent from Gardner Green applied for the Guion-Miller cherokee settlement. Many fellow family members did not bother to apply. It was concluded that there was no known, proven connection to the Cherokee Tribe. The enterviewer stated that “If anything they would be classified as Old Settlers.” He did not say that they weren’t indian.
That history I mentioned written by my fellow family member, and now available at Barnes and Noble, also claims that Gardner Green was the cherokee Gardner listed on the 1835 Henderson Roll. That is entirely false as the Henderson Roll Gardner Green was a young student named Young Wolf at Brainerd Moravian Cherokee School in the early 1800’s and had borrowed the name of his benefactor the rich Mass. merchant Gardner Green. He then signed up, along with his young family, to be removed west with the Echota Cherokees. In 1835 our Gardner Green would have been about 95 years old.
So we have all these people claiming eastern cherokee descent from Gardner Green even though they are seperated by time periods, settlement areas and lines of descent. We have their testimonies from the Guion-Miller commission. Some are accurate and some have proved to be almost completely false. They have no documented, proven connection to the cherokee tribe and yet their family photos prove that they are Indian.
Who and what was Gardner Green?
We can document and trace the Gardner Green of Pindleton Co. S.C. (Old 96 District) back to the southern part of Mecklinburg Co. Va. (Old Lunenburg) in 1764. What we have left to do is try to connect and document our Gardner’s son Benjamin to the migration trail of this Gardner Green. He is our most likely candidate. This is hard because of Benjamin’s stay in Sullivan Co. Tn. (Old State of Franklin).
The Gardner Green from Old Lunenburg had land for a time in Rowan Co. N.C. that backed up to the Moravian lands. The Moravians had a mission to the cherokees on the Yadkin River. This could explain our oral tradition of Gardner marrying Allneenee Talitoosa a daughter of a cherokee chief.
It is my beleif that our Gardner Green was a full or mixed blood descendant of some Va. tribe. That in his migrations he took a cherokee bride but always lived seperately from the cherokee tribe. Dan.
I must admit that it is by faith. Faith in some of the information on those Guion-Miller testimonies. My great great grandfather John Harvey Neal and his fellow siblings could not have been complete idiots and not know the name of their great great grandfather. I do not beleive either that it was a coordinated scheme to defraud the government. As far as I know they never said it was the Gardner Green on the 1835 Henderson Roll.
I know it follows that by faith I should then accept their testimony that Gardner was an Eastern Cherokee. He might have been. But you do not create a cherokee tribe based on this man’s life and enroll 12,000 people without proving it.
I will continue my search for Gardner Green’s origins and I am confident that it will be successful.
On another note; Have you done much work on your Iriquoian neigbors? Of course you know not only the cherokee were in Va. but the Meherrin, Tuscarora and Nottaways were there. I understand that in 1761 parts of the Meherrin and Tuscarora lived with the Saponi and Secotan Machapunga on the Roanoke River.
Lots of other tribes had elements in the Cherokee Nation. Your brothers the Keyawees along with Nottaways and Conestoga Susquehannocks joined the Lower Towns in the 1700’s. I beleive that is where their capital Keowee later got it’s name. Dan.
My understanding is that these rejected applications are valuable for their information, and that historians have found the testimonies to be remarkably reliable.
We’ve written a lot in the past about the misuse of the word “Cherokee” in the 19th century. It seems that it was a generic word for “friendly Indian” and a lot of people were called that which can now be traced to other tribes. However, I hate implying that people should off-handedly throw out an ID that’s been in their family for a long time.
I assumed the “Blackfoot” ID in my family had to be wrong, went about researching it on the basis of who was living near where my family was and in the end came back to “Blackfoot.” It looks like you’ve gone through that same kind of process,
I’m curious how your family members were able to push their genealogies through the state recognition process if they’re so flawed. They must be slack out your way. From what I’ve heard it’s like getting a camel through the eye of a needle out here to make it through that process. But then perhaps it’s mostly politics, and if you hit on that right, anything goes.
Anyway, I would trust your family’s testimony, too, and consider it more than just faith. You have a respected source of documentation for it in those testimonies.
Yes, I’ve researched the Iroquoian tribes in this region, too. My first clue led me to the Tuscarora and I spent a lot of time researching that history before I hit the payload of clues about the Siouan.
Linda; There is no recognition process in the State of Mo.. They have no commission for Indian tribes and most always say there are no tribes in the state.
Right now they are in trouble for this attitude. The federal gov. is on them to help Indians in their state with Indian insurance and medical benefits or lose $1 billion in federal money. Yes, that is 1 billion. That gives you some idea of the amount of Indian money the State of Mo. is squandering.
The State of Mo. kicked the ball back to the federal gov. and demanded them to tell Mo. just what an Indian is and what is an indian tribe. With all of these cherokee tribes that have come out of nowhere and have little legitimacy and are seeking federal recognition that puts the federal gov. in a pickle.
The Northern Cherokees were able to obtain a joint resolution passed by both the house and senate in Mo. that says they are recognized. Throw in a proclamation or two signed by governors from Mo. (which even the Boy Scouts can get) and behold you’re recognized. (Or maybe not.) If you contact the Governor’s office or the office of the Attorney General they will tell you there are no recognized tribes in Mo..
So you see that you don’t have to prove anything and you can even just create your own history, rolls, geneologies, government, etc., etc.. Then you get other groups that get mad, split off, and carry this fake garbage with them. Then those groups split…
It’s a mess. Dan.
I see. .. what you say fits with what I’ve seen or heard of before.
You are right to keep at your work diligently to find the real story as much as it can be known. Eventually, the dust will settle and some sense will be made of things. It looks like there are some good opportunities in the federal pressure on the state.
Research the history of the Lumbee here in North Carolina. They’ve gone through, and are still undergoing, the same kind of turmoil on identity, over the same tribes actually, as you all are. It sounds like the same story, almost. They were called the “cherokee of Robeson county” at one point, then it was decided there was little if any Cherokee blood. There’s still debate if they are Tuscarora or Cheraw (Saponi). Actually they are a congolomerate of all of the above and more. There seems to be a move on for distinct identities to be recognized and accepted by the community as a whole. From a distance, it seems like that should be a workable solution, but that’s probably a naive view on my part.
Hi Dan,
We’ve chatted before on another site. I found it quite interesting what you propose. First of all my family’s link to Gardner was disproved, but with my current research I believe there may be a connection after all. I also have many family members part of the Northern Cherokee Tribe in MO. What I find very interesting is that my family always said we were Cherokee and Blackfoot. Perhaps your theory about Gardner and his wife is not so far off.
My 4th great Granfather was Lewis Green brn 1775 ? and his father is either Richard Green brn abt. 1745 Mecklenburg VA or Gardner Green living in 1790-1800 GreenvilleNC. I’m waiting for and hoping for documentation from the Carolina’s to prove which is his actual father. Furthermore I believe there may be a connection to this Gardner and Richard because they come from the same area and Gardner has Richard in his family line. His son Benjamin witnessed a marriage for Richard Green in KY. Regardless, I believe my family and that I am Indian. Me and my cousin are going to take a DNA test just for the heck of it. Please keep me updated on your finds…
Thank you, Troy
Hello Dan,
Welcome to the site! 🙂 I just wanted to let you know that in Virginia, Cherokee’s are not a recognized Tribe by our backwards state government.
Sincerely,
Coheelady
You know, Green is a common name among Indian descended families in the southeast. It can signify a variety of tribal origins, or should we say, it doesn’t in itself signify any one in particular.
My husband has Greens in his family, from what is called Green town in Brunswick County, VA/ That’s one county over from Mecklenburg. Greentown sits on land that was part of the old Saponi reservation at Fort Christanna. There are other options than just the famous guy.
My family includes many Greens, descended from Regnal Green (1724?) of Berkely County, West Virginia. They left there in the late 1700s and went to Licking County, Ohio and then some went on to Iowa in 1840. This family is believed to be Shawnee.
Cindy
My grandmother’s maiden name was Green, they were from and still live in Halifax/Warren county area of North Carolina. They are members of the Haliwa-Saponi.
I would also note that the Green name occurs among one of the smaller groups of Tidewater Indian descendants in Virginia. I believe it is the one identified tentitively by Speck as Potomac, but I’d have to check.
hi Dan.
I read about what you said about Missouri groups. I can trace relatives of my ancestors to Misouri, but my direct line went through Northern Arkansas, eventually. One side from Va to South Indiana to Ark. Another from E. Tn to NE Al to North Central Al to Ark. Both groups married there, and moved to Indian Teritory (present day Oklahoma, where I still live).
Your experience with Mo/Ark groups is similar to mine — a lack of guidelines by those states has left everyone trying to create their own tribes with different criteria, someone then goes on a membership drive, then one of the new members gets his/her feelin’s hurts andsays “Im’ not gonna play by your rules and starts their own “tribe”. Somebody else sees this mess and says “I’m gonna do it RIGHT!” — and they start their own tribe . . . even if someone or some group does know what they are talkin about — I have NEVER heard of any of those groups PROVE with actual documentation that “their tribe” exsted historically. They will tell you such documentation exists, when you ask them about it == well, it is too secret so it is locked u in a bank vault under lock and key . . . I gave up on them . . . I honestly believe the people are or mixed race, but their leadership of many of those grops is either wacky, or is stuck in a catch-22 cycle from which they don’t know how to extricate themselves, and it damages their credibility to the breaking point. It is frustrating, and makes me angry. It is also sad.
So I was very skeptical when I came to this web site. But these folks seem very sincere, no one is out to create their own “tribe” out of thin air, makin’ up their history as they go along in order to satisfy impossible standards set by the BIA.
I think you’ll like this place, and learn more in a few months than you can ever learn from Northern Cherokee groups in Mo & Ar. I love those folks, but their “history” well, they seem to just make it up without any documentation at all thinkin that will help their standing with BIA recognition. But instead, since they can’t document it — and the BIA is lookin for DOCUMENTATION — they end up shootin themselves in the foot.
Then they get mad at enrolled federal tribes who also see this made up history, and those folks call them “wannabes” — they are not stupid and they know truth with historical documentation and can tell the difference bewteen truth and a lie. Then these made up groups get mad at federaly recognized tribes (not just Cherokee).
To get federal recognition you have to PROVE your tribe has continually existed from historic times to the present, and ALL THESE groups and people — ALL of them — disbanded, were raised in White towns as white people and this disqualifies them — us — from federal recognition, according to ow that is defined by the BIA.
So to circumvent this they “make up” a history that never existed hopin the BIA will see their little band of related families NEVER disbanded. They say so & so was tribal chief from 1820 to 40, another was tribal chief from 1840 to 1875, et cetera, up to today. But I think these were just ancestors probably just tryin to get by and be accepted as mixed-bloods who had a hard time livin as white and couldn’t make it as Indians either, a curse of the mixed-race people. But to admit this they have to admit they don’t meet the satndards set forth by the BIA.
To admit you are NOT gonna meet BIA standards for recognition is the first step towards discovering the REAL truth about your ancestors and some folks are in denial about this. They are STILL callin themselves “Cherokee” — why? Cause the Cherokee Nation exists and their ancestors might be from a small group that is for all intents and purposes practically “extinct” I’m sad to say, today.
But this all stems from, in my opinion, the desire to meet the standard requirements for “recognition” from the federal government.
of course I might be wrong . . . 🙂
Dan, I like your approach to this, and your comments.
vance
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