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Dan and anyone else interested in Sizemore. I will post two sites that are definitely reliable on Sizemore. First is the DNA test results the have proven what Sizemore is definitely Native American. Look at the Haplo group, first column and Q is Native American. This has resulted in a lot of reworked families and corrects a lot of bad genealogy. http://www.genpage.com/DNAindex.html
The second is Ron Blevins work. I have worked with him on the Blevins as his Wells son of James Blevins and Lydia Sizemore and my grandfather Nathan are brothers. He is exacting beyond the point of perfection. He promised to publish his Blevins research that I know is more than 1000 pages but he is still researching! As you will see by this paper, Sizemore, Legend or Fact. He even has researched the over 2000 applications on Dawes that were turned down and now the Sizemore DNA proves that they were Indian although very unlikely Cherokee except the ones that married Cherokee. Nice thing is that he has a search engine on it. He has unbelievable documentaion that is beyone doubt.
Example:
1748 Sunlight on the Southside Lunenburg Co, VA 1748-1783 p.276 by Landon Bell, pp.64-66) Lunenburg Co, VA Tithables For 1748 List taken by Cornelius Cargill..(last 7 names on list each with 1 tithe) William Sizemore, Thos. Franklin, Ephraim Sizemore, Henry Sizemore, James Sizemore, Edward Sizemore, Reps. Orzbond (16) Lunenburg Co, VA Entry Record Book, page 86 – 7 Apr. 1748 – Edward Sizemore 400A on Little Buffalo Cr. Beginning where the Path crosses thence up both sides this Grassy Creek path (6) Lunenburg Co, VA Wills 1746-1845, by Bell, recorded in Deed Book 1, p.477-478 Will of Henry Green, dated 15 Oct. 1748: “mentions wife Elizabeth Green, Sons: John Green, Henry Green, Stephen Green, Frederick Green, Richard Green, and daughter Dorcas Green; sister-in-law Abigail Green wife of brother John Green. Executors: brother-in-law Richard Griffin, and son John Green. Witnesses: Edward Sizemore (his mark), William Jackson (his mark), Thos. Gristwood. (6)
He only deals with his personal family George of Ashe Co but documents the family’s ancestors.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~craingen/SIZEMORE1.html
His paper was published on this website that looks like it may have a lot of info.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~craingen/
If people were as intolerant of “Indians” in Virginia as we are led to believe, I have to think that was reason enough for these folks stay together in groups and were forced to keep moving west.
Collins,
In the URL cited in your post of 11-10-2005 of 10:14 AM, wouldn’t the “last war under Sir William Johnson” have been the “French and Indian War”? That narrows the age ranges of those people’s ages, to the time period of 1754 to 1763.
Bill
Vivian,
If this is the same SIZEMORE line in 1740’s Lunenburg Co., Va., whose desendants these many years since, identify as Cherokee, it is little wonder that their Cherokee applications were rejected.
Bill
There’s a Little Buffalo Creek in Mecklenburg, which would be near where the Path crossed. Was Mecklenburg cut out of Lunenberg? If so, our Greens down here should find this very interesting.
I dont’ understand your comment. Are you saying because they could trace their lineage to Lunenburg that they could not be Indian. The called themselves the Whitetop Laurel Band of Cherokee, and knew they were of mixed heritage, including the belief that they had intermarried with many from different tribes but “Cherokee” was all that anyone in these area were called. Mostly by others.
I live in Ohio and went to Ashe Co NC to do some genealogy research and when I went into the library and asked where the genealogy dept was she asked me what name I was researching. I am a green eyed, blonde and told her Blevins and she just said. Over there. You know you are Indian. Not sure if that was good or bad but did not ask for any more help!
As for the length of time being an issue, is that not what everyone here is trying to do. I know any full blood relative in my line is going to be way back in Virginia, North Carolina or maybe even in New England. The Eastern Cherokee had chiefs in the 1800 that were mixed. Blood quantum is the easiest form of genocide that anyone ever invented.
Hi Vivian, I think what Bill is refering to in regards to Sizemores in Lunenburg is that the Eastern Cherokee have a huge file on the Sizemores via Edward Ned Sizemore. They always reject their applications based on this past rejection and the Cherokee admit that the Sizemores are Indian but they just don’t recognize that they belong to the Cherokee. The Sizemores most likely do have Cherokee blood, but if I’m not mistaken many researchers believe them to be from a Southeastern Siouan tribe. I have Sizemore family lines distantly related by marriages.
On the other question raised I am unsure what is being refered to. I posted some links to Johnson information and previously posted a link to British records, of which, some refered to Sir William Johnson and the French and Indian War. There is other Johnson/Johnston information on that site plus other family surnames that people on this board may be looking for, so I am unsure as to what explanation is being requested. If I have given an impression by posting links that they all pertain to my lines I appoligize for the misunderstanding and perhaps should have added a note or two with each link. I will try to do that in the future. I am seeing alot of new information about the Johnson and Collins lines that I haven’t seen before and that needs working out, but I also keep my eye out for other surnames that people on this board my be looking for.
This link is to Sizemore Information. Just information I have come across. This link also has some other links you may find interesting on the Sizemore Indian question.
http://www.globalgraffiti.com/family/sizemore/native.htm
Collins,
I was responding to your earlier post containing that statement.
Vivian,
If you re-read my earlier reply, you’ll see that I did not say they were not Indian. I said they are unlikely to be Cherokee, because Lunenburg is way outside any area inwhich the Cherokee lived. The people living at White Top appear to have came out of Ashe/Surry Counties, NC. They were moving back and forth from White Top to Greasy Rock (Hancock Co) Tennessee (about 20 miles) on a regular basis (re: Richard Carlson’s dissertation).
This group may have contained some Cherokee because the Greasy Rock and White Top communities were in an area claimed by the Cherokee as a “Hunting Reserve” set aside for them prior to 1790, in an earlier treaty, but the U.S. gov’t disputed it.
Descendants of these groups were not recognized by the Cherokee, altho we know they were Native. An explanation that I find compelling is that any Cherokee at Greasy Rock and White Top were men who married into the group, hence they belonged to their wife’s clan (matrilineal culture), which in this case were not Cherokee, so their descendants weren’t recognized as Cherokee.
Bill
Bill and all,
I understand what you are say but I just the process brings up so many questions for me. William H Blevins organized his whole family of over 2000 people with the purpose of going to Oklahoma. In his application he makes this statement.
“The word ‘Chief’ in my application, means that I am chief of the White Top Band of Cherokee Indians, an organization of the principal Cherokee Indians living about White Top, and was perfected about ten years ago. We organized so as to demand our rights in a body. We thought we had not been getting them before. In 1896, we wanted to go to the Indian Territory, and organized for that purpose. When the band was first organized there were about 2175, I believe. They were all Sizemore descendants. No one else was allowed to become a member if it was known. I have read the Decree of the Supreme Court of the United States referred to in my application, and have it at home. My father, Armstrong Blevins, I do not think was a party to the treaty of 1836 and 1846. I am putting my own interpretation on the decree.” William H was born in 1840 in Ashe Co. so at best his knowledge of the treaties and the removal was more from talk that he heard on the front porch as a kid.
Somehow he is firm in his belief that his family were Indian and chose to use the word “Cherokee”. His statment that he does not think his father was party to the Treaties seems a little ambiqious to me. I wonder did he think his father was actively involved enough in Cherokee lifestyle but not high enough to be involved in the treaties of 1836 and 1846.
I have to wonder what it was that made them now want to go out west under the auspices of being subject to the government as an Indian when he was never listed as such in the census. The Oklahoma Land Rush would have given them the same opportunity and it is exactly the same time period if what they wanted to do was to relocate.
Vivian,
That they identified themselves as Indian and Cherokee is good enough for me. My ‘problem’, genealogically speaking, is that many of their ancestors can be traced back into areas of NC and Virginia that are and were Eastern Siouan, not Cherokee.
Bill
I have done genealogy for a hobby now for over 35 years and I would like to get each line back to the boat or at least prove they met the boat. When I first started Mom had a cousin that also liked to do genealogy. All she wanted to do was to prove “what type of Indian her mother’s grandmother was for her mother.” Her mom lived to be 96 and we still did not get that done. When she told my Mom that, Mom said we didn’t have any Indian blood. Ruth said, didn’t they call you a “little half breed” when you were young. Mom said, “Yeh, but I did’t know they were serious.” Ruth thought it was the Cottrell line and they do have their stories but I also have big brick walls. My Cottrell married a Blevins whose mother was a Vaughn and they all came out of this conglamoration of people with the longhunters.
I know when I first started I just wanted to know how my quiet little grandmother, (discovered lots of Quaker roots) took up with my Hell raising grandfather. Farming just did not seem to be in their genes. Grandpa raised and raced dogs and that was probably the most respectful thing he did. He was anti government and anti religious although he claimed ” If God had been smarter, he would have found a way to make alll the damn leaves stay on the trees.” He did believe in a creator and I took care of him when he was dieing and he did believe in an existence beyond this one. They kept seperate from others and protected us fiercely. When Grandma died, the kids wanted to put her full name, Sarah Genella on the marker and he insisted on “Nellie”. She lived by Nellie and she’ll die by Nellie. On his mother’s death certificate, her name is Mrs William Cotrell. Why? I have never seen another death certificate like it. He put down her father’s name, James Sebring and her mother, Rachel Blevins but did not put her name. Charlotta Jane or “Jennie” as she was called.
Along the lines of being different, I wonder about the Longhunters. Why did they not farm? Were their father’s farmers. We are taught that by this time the Woodland Indians were no longer normadic or relied on hunting but were agrarian. They seemed different from traders. My first husband was a farmer and we tried it for a while. It is a hard life at best, even with plenty of good land. I find it hard to visualize that “farmers” were content to stay in the mountains for hundreds of years, when there was plenty of furtile flat land that was free. The Quakers kept moving out to the better farmlands.
Looks like we are getting our first snow for the year. It has been in the seventies, so this will definitely be known as the year of strange weather. It is big fluffy white flake so I will most likley be lazy all day and have to make some cookies with my grandson.
The rest of day, I think I will look back over the Russell Co Va tax lists. Nathan on is the 1788-89 lists. His oldest known child with Rachel Skaggs dau of Charles was born at that time.
Vivian,
Charles Skaggs and many of Elisha Wallen Senior’s probably associated Long Hunters – Haraldson, Blevins, Roberts, Rogers, Baker, Baldwin, Cox, etc, are living in close proximity to one another on the 1767 Pittsylvania Co., Va tax lists of Peter Copland and Richard Chandler:
http://www.census-online.com/links/VA/Pittsylvania/
Later, many of these same people are found on the 1782 Montgomery Co., Va Personal Property Tax Lists, also at that census-online site.
Bill
Thank all of you for your replies and discussions. I want to first comment on Charles’ post of 9/9/05. “Jenny, Capt. Pearce’s daughter, aged as we suppose about sixty.” Capt. William Pierce was commissioned by the governor of Va. in 1623 to be in charge of all of the defenses of the Virginia Colony. This was after the 1622 Powhatan uprising. When Pocahontas/Matoaka died in England, John Rolphe returned to Virgina and married Jane Pierce, the Capt’s daughter. The Jenny mentioned above is said to be a Wyanoke. The Wyanokes were found living just below the mouth of the Appomattox River on the opposite north side of the James River. They later removed to the present Prince George Co. area and then moved down the Nottoway River where they were found joining the Nottoway Tribe on the upper Nottoway and where we find Wyanoke Creek today.
This woman could very well be the product of an Indian side-wife of Capt. William Pierce and the half sister of John Rolphe’s 2nd wife and the step-aunt of Thomas Rolphe and the great step/aunt of Jane Rolphe who was the wife of Robert Bolling.
I think I got all of that right. Are you reading Crystal?
Dan.
Cousin Bill; Thank you so much for the Green info.
I want to relate where I am on this, but I will keep it brief and maybe add more later.
As you know RICHARD and BENJAMIN GREEN appear in Henry Co. Ky. by 1800. They have been found by family genealogists to have moved from the Clinch River on the present Hawkins/Hancock county line with my BENJAMIN living on present Mill Creek just southwest of Kyle’s Ford and RICHARD living on Blackwater Creek, north side of the Clinch, just a few miles from Ben Green. They were on the Clinch by at least 1784 and were neighbors to the “Melungeons.”
RICHARD GREEN was found living before that in the 1770’s in the Elk Creek settlement on the New River and had been accused of Tory activities as was William Riddle (Melungeon).
Before that we have; RICHARD GREEN, 1745, 200 acres on both sides of the Sandy River, beginning at the lower end of Bear Garden and HENRY GREEN, 1743, 400 acres on the north side of Dan River… 400 acres on Sandy Creek at the Upper Buffalo Lick.
The Sandy River is where some “Melungeon” families, including the Riddles, had moved by 1767.
The Sandy River and Creek both empty into the Dan River at present Danville Va. and are very close together. This was near to Wm. Byrd’s “Eden” property and William Wynne lived there.
From there we go Great Buffalo Creek 1740’s to 1770’s where we find the Green/Sizemore settlements and the family of HENRY GREEN with the son of William Wynne, John Wynne/Winn, living at the mouth of Gr. Buffalo Ck. on the Roanoke just across from Wm. Byrd’s “Blue Castle” property.
From there we go to the Nottoway River with; HENRY GREEN, 1728, 200acres on the north side of Nottoway River and RICHARD GREEN, 1739, 854 acres btween Nottoway River and Birchin Swamp. This Birchin Swamp empties into Tommahitton Swamp just before it empties into the Nottoway Riv. Tommahitton of course, being translated to mean “Cherokee.”
There is also; LEWIS GREEN 2nd, 1705, 97 acres, …on the south side of Jones Hole Swamp (off the Nottoway River) …to a hickory being the corner of Mr. Thomas Wynne…
Around 1700 the Wynnes were living on Moccusseneck Creek off of the Nottoway River.
Abraham Wood’s step-daughter Margaret married Maj. Peter Jones’ daughter, Mary Francis Jones, married Maj. Joshua Wynne, interpretor to the Nottoways. William Wynne of Danville was Maj. Joshua Wynne’s son.
Capt. Peter Jones was an Indian trader at Wood’s Fort and he mentioned in his will in 1721 “I give an bequeath to my son Thomas Jones my Plantation upon the Great Creek, so-called, on Nottoway River…I bequeath to my son John Jones…joining on the land of INDIAN WILL’s down the Creek…”
Peter Jones was in Wm. Byrd’s surveying party in 1728-33 when they mapped the dividing line between Va. and N.C.
So perhaps genealogists and researchers may find a connection to the Green’s Native past at the Nottoway River. We shall see.
Dan.
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